Being a parent means unconditional love for children?

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:05 am

Sort of a spinoff of davening that one's children die thread, someone wrote that of course the parents of some otd children would want their children to die as they are hurting the rest of the family etc.

But my question is, not connected to that specific thread at all, is arent parents supposed to love their chilren unconditionally, no matter what they do?

As I said in that thread, I always tell my daughter that even when she does things that I do not like, that I dont like WHAT she has done but that I will always love HER.

I know being a parent to meaning that one loves their child unconditionally, no matter what. And no matter what really means that, no matter what they may do or have done, you love them anyway.

Are there really people out there that disagree with this?

FranticFrummie

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:12 am

Yes. I can love my child, and hate what she has done.

I make it a point to always be clear with her, and say "I don't like what you just did" and NEVER say "you are a bad kid". We talk about making good choices and bad choices, and how I can disagree with her choices, but still love her as my daughter.

We are supposed to emulate the ways of Hashem, in all of his aspects. One of the aspects is as a Judge, but another aspect is Mercy. On Yom Kippur, we declare our teshuvah, and beg for the aspect of Mercy.

We want HKBH to treat us this way, and He sets the example for how we are supposed to treat our children.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:14 am

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

Again, she can hate WHAT the child did, but still love the child.

Heyaaa

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:16 am

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

If a child does that, unless it was the fault of a drunken driver, it's the parents fault for letting the problem escalate that far.

oliveoil

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:17 am

Heyaaa wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

If a child does that, unless it was the fault of a drunken driver, it's the parents fault for letting the problem escalate that far.

Sorry, I don't agree. We can be talking about adult children here.

oliveoil

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:18 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

Again, she can hate WHAT the child did, but still love the child.

I'm aware.

But I think almost everyone has some point at which they wouldn't love the kid anymore.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:19 am

oliveoil wrote:

Heyaaa wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

If a child does that, unless it was the fault of a drunken driver, it's the parents fault for letting the problem escalate that far.

Sorry, I don't agree. We can be talking about adult children here.

I agree with oliveoil. It is not always the fault of the parent, but I still stand by what I said. I love my child until the day I die, I may not like what they do or choose as a path in their life, but I will always love them, no matter what.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 3:19 am

oliveoil wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

Again, she can hate WHAT the child did, but still love the child.

I'm aware.

But I think almost everyone has some point at which they wouldn't love the kid anymore.

I disagree.

ora_43

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 4:05 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

Again, she can hate WHAT the child did, but still love the child.

What does "love" mean at that point?

Loving their personality? Their behavior? Who they are as a person in any sense? I'm guessing not.

Loving them because they are the physical continuation of a person you used to love? But how meaningful is that, really? To me that's not really loving someone, it's loving who you wish they were/ still loving who they used to be.

Loving them because they're good and holy deep deep deep down inside? You could say the same for terrorists or nazis or Amalek. To be clear, I do think there's value in talking about "love" on a very theoretical level of love for every human being, even the ones you also hate. But at some point it's no longer "love" in the sense that we know and recognize from day to day life.

I agree with oliveoil. I think davka when you do love someone, it makes sense that there's a point where their behavior can be so bad it would have been emotionally easier if they had died. I also agree with you, in that I think that love is still there too.

Basically, I think it's a false dichotomy - it's not unconditional love vs. a complete lack of love; unconditional love is what makes the inability to love someone in a normal sense (ie, loving who they are) more painful than their death.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 7:02 am

Heyaaa wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

If a child does that, unless it was the fault of a drunken driver, it's the parents fault for letting the problem escalate that far.

No, no, and no. Parents are not responsible for every sin their children commit! Some children are born with problems/issues/violence, and even the best parents find it hard to control them.

I think it is absolutely terrible to even hint such a thing. Often parents with easy, good natured kids will say that all the world's problems could be solved by better parenting. Let's see them deal with a seriously difficult child before saying such a thing.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 7:06 am

Oh, and I agree with Ora.
I think 'unconditional love' is empty words.
Yes, in the normal run of things, you would hope that a parent would continue to love their child.

But if chas vechalila their child became a serial rapist, with no regret? How could the parent continue to really love the child for who he is?

amother

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 7:12 am

Shabbat, I hope you (or anybody) never knows the emotional pain of dealing with a child whose behavior pushes you to thoughts you'd never think you'd have. But of course, when we think of doing bad things, we try to push those thoughts away, calm down and do the right thing.

There have been moments when I did not feel any love for my children due to dangerous behaviors they engaged in. I did not let them know how I felt, and it passed - eventually. There are a lot of mixed emotions involved in dealing with difficult kids.

the world's best mom

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 8:15 am

I agree with Ora. Just wanted to add that it's very possible to love someone and hate him at the same time, as may be the case in the murder example.

And how could anyone blame the parents for one child murdering another? Maybe if the murderer was 6 years old, but not when they're older. Children are not their parents' puppets. Parents can't control the way they act, they can only do their best to guide them in the right way to live as a mentch.

Frumdoc

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 8:34 am

There is a great novel by Noah Hawley, called The Good Father, that adresses this issue of a parent confronting his child's actions. Very moving, and shows the conflicting feelings of love, disbelief and horror over the son's actions (he was accused of murdering the President elect).

Well worth reading for those who are interested in these issues.

shalhevet

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 9:28 am

Heyaaa wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I don't believe in unconditional love. I think all love has limits and conditions.

What if a person's child killed one/some/all of her other children? (chas v'shalom)

Would she still love him/her?

If a child does that, unless it was the fault of a drunken driver, it's the parents fault for letting the problem escalate that far.

That is a terrible, terrible thing to say. I'm guessing you don't have any children over the age of about 6 or 8.

Teenage and adult children are partially a product of our chinuch, but they are partially a product of their own neshama, the chinuch they gave themselves, and their environment.

When our children are "good", so much of it is siyata dishmaya, even though it feels better for us to pat ourselves on the back.

As for the original question, I think it depends how we define love. I think parents can get to a point where their child's actions disturb them so much, that maybe hate would be a better description (hate and love are closely intertwined, btw, and probably indifference is a worse place for a parent to be).

yo'ma

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 9:47 am

When I was in h.s. some of the girls in our class asked our teacher if she always loved her children. Don't ask me why they asked, but she said, I always love them, but I don't always like them. They, the girls, could not understand that answer. I guess I had strange classmates Smile

zaq

Sun, Dec 29 2013, 12:14 pm

Loving and liking are two different things. You can love a person even when you don't like him or her very much.

Love has to do with caring about them, wanting the best for them, being concerned about their well-being. Liking has to do with taking pleasure in their company. You can have one without the other.