Million Man Atzeres

Ariella28

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:16 pm

I'm here..............Nothing to say, I am sooo out of all this politics! I dunno how to stop this thread. It is so not what I intended

rosehill

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:22 pm

cinnamon wrote:

No it should not be able to tell anyone not to learn Torah. It should not be the one to decide which bochur is really learning and which is a "bench warmer" Do you know how many boys who were bench warmers became great talmidei chachamim because they weren't made to leave the yeshiva?

I'd actually like to know the answer to that question.
How many?

I've read many biographies of talmidei chachamim, and none of them have had a chapter about their 'bench warming' days. Could be historical revisionism.

amother

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:24 pm

monseychick wrote:

EXCELLENT RESPONSE !!!!!

And Im Charedi. But fair is fair.....

If the Israel is such an evil place, and those mean rotten zionists are going to shmad your children. Go to Lakewood or Monsey.... Good luck with the schools

Actually, it's a horrible response. Chareidim don't get supported by the government any more than any body else!!! More money goes to "culture".. how come my tax money has to go to that when I don't want it to either.. hmm... how come my tax money has to go to feed people who want me dead (think Gaza!!! ).. how come my electric rates are higher to compensate for the fact that the Palestinian authority is not paying their share.. hmmm..

I am also Chareidi. If the army really wants to have the Chareidim in the army then they should have a real Nachal Chareidi!!!! Chareidim should not have to compromise on their frumkeit just because it does not jive with the convenience of others. There is no harm in mehadrin food.. there is no harm in not forcing them to hear kol isha.. there is no harm in letting them go to the mikveh erev shabbos or whenever else they need.. I can go on and on.

There is tons of evidence that religious soldiers do not have it so good. There is no good reason why the army can't accomodate the needs of the Chareidi soldiers. The ARMY even states that they don't really need more soldiers!!!! This whole share the burden is just a way to get Chareidim to stop being Chareidim!!!

etky

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:29 pm

Ariella28 wrote:

I'm here..............Nothing to say, I am sooo out of all this politics! I dunno how to stop this thread. It is so not what I intended

It's Ok Ariella, no one is blaming you. You stepped on a hornets' nest without realizing it.
This exchange was bound to take place. It was like Vesuvius waiting to erupt.
Your post was just the trigger.

monseychick

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:29 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

I'm not going anywhere. And my sons will do whatever our rebbe tells them too.
If he tells them to sit in jail and not serve they will.

Good Luck with that LOL

Raisin

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:32 pm

freidasima wrote:

Wow what a thread. Just logged in now.
You all know my opinion so I won't bother boring you with it.
How absolutely wonderful that the women on here don't make government or public policy.
Let me tell you, it's not fun, it's not easy, it's a lot of compromise, a lot of politics and a lot of having to think outside the box...and then no one can be 100% happy with the result because...it's by nature the result of a compromise.
As someone who does this as her daily living, let me tell you, no one is going to like the results of Vaadat shaked no matter what it decides.

The question however is one of demographics. In another 20 years if the country's demographics continue there is going to be a large majority of 18 year olds who are charedi in this country. And that means that if they aren't going to the army there is going to be a big population with a smaller draft than today if these charedim aren't going into the army. Today it's not yet a problem but in one generation it will be one heck of a problem and that's what policy makers are addressing, the future, not the present.

It has nothing to do with wanting to make charedim "secular israelis", and it has nothing to do with "shivyon binetel" today. It has to do with the state of the country in 20 years and that has to be part and parcel of public policy for the next five years which will determine what is going to happen here 15 years after that.

THAT is how we make public policy, just FYI.

Hence before all of this happened, with no connection to the rabble rousing of any party, there have been demographers working for the government, some for the army, some for the otzar (treasury) and some for other offices including my own (public health) who were giving us different forecasts about what the country's demography will be in another 20 years of the present trends continue. Of course there could always be a tremendous change, such as there was in 1988-90 and onwards when the iron curtain came down and the FSU immigrants started coming here en masse, something no one could have really predicted twenty years earlier. We are beginning to get quite an aliya from France but it's a drop in the bucket in terms of tremendous public change.

The ONLY big change that could be would be a tremendous rise of antisemitism and/or problems in the United States that would send a million American Jews to EY within a period of five or six years, THAT could change the county's demography. But there is no other such potential aliyah possible that could do it. Will such a thing happen? Let's say that those producing policy papers have their doubts...

Another possibility that could change the demography,would be if charedi families suddenly had many fewer children all of a sudden. That means that the average of 7-8 children per charedi family would all of a sudden drop to, let's say 3-4 children within the next five years. Is that going to happen? more chance that 1 million american Jews will come on aliyah until 2020...meaning almost no chance at all...so..

And so on. So we work within the forecasts that exist. And they show a problem when we will have more than 60% of the draft age men of 18 and up as charedim who won't be going to the army...
So the government is planning for the future.

Is it bad? Again, you know my opinion so I won't bore you with it. There are those who are saying that if 10,000 charedi men would be inducted every year it would change the demography of the army tremendously and create a need for acclimatizing the army to their special nature and an atmosphere that a lot of things would change. That might be interesting...

Anyhow, as I wrote, I'm glad that the ladies here don't make public policy...

don't modern armies need far less men to serve on the ground then they used to, what with drones, and computers and modern weaponry? Is it possible that in 20 years time they won't NEED such a big army?

(ok I'm sure these people aren't stupid and will have factored all that in to their calculations.)

With all the unrest in Ukraine you might get a buncha new immigrants soon.

scrltfr

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:36 pm

Sanguine wrote:

Who joins the American army? People who can't do anything else. How many dati Jews do you know who sees it as a good opportunity? I would never push my kids to join the army if every other boy was out advancing their personal life (and if they tell me they can hire a better army - let them).
Policemen and firefighters live at home and work set hours. Jobniks may sleep at home and work set hours. But Kravi soldiers are constantly practicing. Are always moving bases based on the needs of the army. (are we being attacked from the North or the South today?) So till what age do you think someone is willing to live like that? And then what? They wasted those years while their peers went to university and got experience in jobs.
We don't have 300,000,000 people like America.

How offensive to the thousands that have given their lives to protect America! My grandfather, father, uncles and friends have served in the US military. Did you stop to think that people actually WANT to perform their civic duty? That they want to CONTRIBUTE to helping keep our country safe? FYI there are many companies in the US that give top priority hiring to veterans. I would NEVER call those wasted years. Also, most commercial airline pilots have military experience as well as many engineers, etc. Please do your research and use common sense before you make such comments!

black sheep

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 4:01 pm

Ariella28 wrote:

I'm here..............Nothing to say, I am sooo out of all this politics! I dunno how to stop this thread. It is so not what I intended

if you are "so out of all these politics," then why would you consider joining a political rally?

Success10

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 4:03 pm

black sheep wrote:

if you are "so out of all these politics," then why would you consider joining a political rally?

Actually, it was an atzeres tefillah.

freidasima

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 4:06 pm

Raisin you ask a good question and the answer is no, the only way to win a war these days is still the old fashioned way, infantry, if we are talking a guerilla war and that's the kind we have here in the middle east. No one is really talking about using an atomic bomb to destroy another country but rather its threat (maybe) however when push comes to shove we are still talking infantry.

As for the Ukraine, not enough Jews there who would only come to EY anymore...they came already. The others would probably seek asylum elsewhere.

As for gedolim who were benchwarmers...not too many of those around.

Now here's the question. What do people think all those charedi bochurs would choose to do if their gedolim did not tell them what to do, meaning if they had to choose and think for themselves? It's a loaded question because it is predicated on the same question one asks the secular and national religious - would they go to the army if there was no law that forced them to go? For charedi bochurs their gedolim's ruling is law. Above the law of the land. And there are severe sanctions if they don't follow the gedolim's public ruling.

So, bearing in mind the situation today and the general feeling in the charedi world today, if all of a sudden the gedolim would say "do what you see fit", what do some of you think that the majority of charedi bochurs here in EY would choose to do?

amother

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 4:16 pm

black sheep wrote:

if you are "so out of all these politics," then why would you consider joining a political rally?

Because she was told to by the heads of the Borg collective..... Thats why....

black sheep

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 4:27 pm

Success10 wrote:

Actually, it was an atzeres tefillah.

Semantics.
No, actually, it is more sinister than that, to call a political rally an "atzeres tefillah."

Isramom8

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 4:35 pm

I was there. It was about an hour and a half of heartfelt prayer, and a few seconds of a calm statement that the gedolim have said not to cooperate with IDF drafts at this time.

It was Mincha with Chazaras HaShas and Kedusha, Tehillim, Selichos, Kabalas Ol Malchus Shamayim, Ani Ma'amin and Shofar blowing, followed by controlled dancing.

A very calm, quiet, inspiring, huge gathering of Klal Yisrael turning to Hashem.

saw50st8

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 4:54 pm

In a country like Israel, where danger is really imminent on every street and in every corner, its especially important to have most of your country trained in basic training. Soldiers are able to recognize different types of danger more clearly and easier than someone who wasn't trained.

Barbara

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 5:57 pm

amother wrote:

"They don't need more soldiers." So your solution is to exempt Charedim, and let everyone else risk their lives.

If they don't need everyone, they'll have a draft, so everyone will have an equal chance of exemption.

Barbara

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:00 pm

amother wrote:

For all those telling Chareidim to leave EY My brother and sister in law are in fact moving back after to America after Pesach.I'YH And yes the Israeli government is a major factor in their decision to do so.(They have been keeping one day Yom Tov for years and had no plans of leaving a year ago)But what about those who aren't American citizens What help are YOU willing to give them to leave and resettle?I do in fact think the best option would be if the entire Chareidey population would leave EY.But do they have that option?

And are they intending to register for the draft at age 18 as required by US law? And will they serve if drafted, like my father did?

amother

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:17 pm

amother wrote:

Duh..... For the same reason, Jews left Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, Poland, Russia, Iran, Yemen, Syria....
If the secular Israelis are persecuting you....

RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!

You make me sick.

We are two weeks before Purim. Less than 70 years after Auschwitz. Rwanda. Darfur. Look at what is going on today in the Ukraine.

And what do you see as persecution? Asking able-bodied young people to help serve in the military of the country where they live, to protect that country -- not some foreign land -- against real and imminent threats on its own soil. That's what brings to mind the Nazis to you.

Go learn what persecution really is. Then go and apologize to every Israeli who has sent their son or daughter to protect you.

BlueRose52

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:18 pm

black sheep wrote:

Semantics.
No, actually, it is more sinister than that, to call a political rally an "atzeres tefillah."

Exactly.

The very fact that people are still insisting that a gathering of 300,000+ people isn't in any way a political statement, just demonstrates how strong the reality distortion field is for certain people.

amother

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:28 pm

amother wrote:

Hello, I was being facetious Surprised

I thought that was obvious

BlueRose52

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:20 pm

amother wrote:

Hello, I was being facetious Surprised

I thought that was obvious

It should be obvious, but it's not when people hold up signs like these.