Are you makpid on yoshon?

shalhevet

Thu, Apr 26 2007, 1:46 pm

I am totally confused here.

Firstly, before I get posts (or pms) that I am deliberately attacking Lubavitch, when I posted I had absolutely no idea that Lubavitch do not keep yashan. (Just for the record.)

Now that I have read these posts -

1. Maybe at the time that your Rebbe said so it was difficult to be makpid in Chul. Like I wrote at the beginning of the thread, I know that many years ago it was virtually impossible to be makpid and those Gedolei Yisroel, like the Chofetz Chaim and the Brisker Rov who were careful, often had to eat matzos in the winter months. So maybe (or maybe not) that psak was for that place at that time.

2. If a rav gives a psak I can be more makpid if I want (providing of course that I'm not being more meikel in something else by doing it, which I must admit is often the case, as we discussed recently on another thread). If my rav tells me that we hold Shabbos is out by the time of the Geonim (25 minutes after shkiya), what is the problem in someone keeping the zman of Rabbenu Tam (72 minutes after shkiya) instead, if he wants to be more makpid? I am shocked that people were attacked here by other frum women and felt they had to defend why they are more makpid.

3. The issue of chadash/yashon is (at least) a safeik midoraiysa. If someone lives in an area where it requires minimal effort to keep (as I didn't know before and understand from this thread, that in America there are lists of products which are chadash free), why shouldn't they make that minimal effort?

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Apr 26 2007, 1:47 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

I'm curious why he would do something that the Rebbe said we are not makpid on. Confused

Did he mean it as in "don't worry -- you don't have to be makpid on yoshon' or 'you should not be makpid on yoshon"?
There are things my rav says we're not makpid on (e.g. selling chometz on Pesach) but if it's your minhag, that's fine. He actually says the minhag is not to keep yoshon but he doesn't have an issue with anyone who does keep it (my husband and he have had many debates about it) and will try to address the needs of those who do keep it at shul functions or what not.

Crayon210

Thu, Apr 26 2007, 2:22 pm

shalhevet wrote:

1. Maybe at the time that your Rebbe said so it was difficult to be makpid in Chul. Like I wrote at the beginning of the thread, I know that many years ago it was virtually impossible to be makpid and those Gedolei Yisroel, like the Chofetz Chaim and the Brisker Rov who were careful, often had to eat matzos in the winter months. So maybe (or maybe not) that psak was for that place at that time.

The Rebbe said it in 5740. We heard the Rebbe's sichos until 5752. That's enough time to issue a new statement.

Quote:

2. If a rav gives a psak I can be more makpid if I want (providing of course that I'm not being more meikel in something else by doing it, which I must admit is often the case, as we discussed recently on another thread). If my rav tells me that we hold Shabbos is out by the time of the Geonim (25 minutes after shkiya), what is the problem in someone keeping the zman of Rabbenu Tam (72 minutes after shkiya) instead, if he wants to be more makpid? I am shocked that people were attacked here by other frum women and felt they had to defend why they are more makpid.

Maybe it's only like this in Chabad, but when the Rebbe says "we aren't makpid on something", it's a bit gaivadik to then be makpid on that thing. Confused

Quote:

3. The issue of chadash/yashon is (at least) a safeik midoraiysa. If someone lives in an area where it requires minimal effort to keep (as I didn't know before and understand from this thread, that in America there are lists of products which are chadash free), why shouldn't they make that minimal effort?

Because the Rebbe said we aren't makpid. I don't need to be frummer than the Rebbe. Confused

Crayon210

Thu, Apr 26 2007, 2:23 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

I'm curious why he would do something that the Rebbe said we are not makpid on. Confused

The Rebbe is different than a rav. The Rebbe sets policy in Chabad, so if the Rebbe says we aren't makpid, then we aren't makpid, v'zehu.

Motek

Thu, Apr 26 2007, 3:25 pm

The Bach (1561-1641) paskened that one is not required to observe yoshon outside of Eretz Yisrael. The Baal Shem Tov praised this psak highly and said what great things the Bach was zoche to, up Above, which is why all Chassidim (not just Chabad) are not makpid on yoshon and treat this as a l'chatchile.

Furthermore, Chassidim are known to act with tremendous mesirus nefesh with mitzvos in general, certainly with kashrus. Their not being makpid on yoshon is not about having an easier life.

Since the Beis Yosef says it's obligatory, I would think Sefardim would be obligated.

Ruchel

Thu, Apr 26 2007, 5:21 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Stem, it's interesting you said in the US, because in EY it's midoraiysa according to all opinions (I think) so your statement would be even more accurate.

I think she worded it like that because of the heter of R' Moshe Feinstein that cholov stam is allowed in the united states due to federal regulations. This would not be the case in another country (e.g. Russia).

I don't know about Russia, but cholov stam is allowed in all European countries according to the French ravs.

Health is a Virture

Sun, Apr 29 2007, 2:46 pm

Though R' Moshe Feinstein did state a tremendous kulloh in regards to cholov yisrael, he himself would never drink cholov sta"m. Perhaps, the Lubavitcher Rebbe stated that Chabad do not have to keep yashan, but he himself was machmir on this? I don't know, but I am just thinking perhaps that is so.

The truth of the matter is is that only in like the past 10-15 years (after the Rebbe was niftar) has it become sooo much easier to keep yashan, and so when he was alive he did not feel it necessary to change his ruling, but who knows? maybe now he would?

Many people would also say that the cholov stam kuloh by R' Feinstein was for a certain time and place. Nowadays, when it is so easy to get cholov yisrael milk and products, why be meikel on this?

HY, you don't keep cholov yisrael? Hmm, I was surprised.

Then again, I live in Israel, it would be difficult to not keep cholov yisrael and yashan!!! :-)

Motek

Sun, Apr 29 2007, 5:53 pm

Rather than compare chalav Yisrael to yashan observance, how about comparing not touching the beard (see Chofetz Chaim, R' Shach, Steipler Gaon, R' Chaim Kanievsky, Chazon Ish) with yashan observance. I wonder why a cleanshaven person would be makpid on yoshon and not be makpid on something that numerous poskim hold is an isur d'oraisa.

As far as in the US - my father told me that the Soloveitchiks were the only (public figures) ones to be makpid many decades ago. R' Aharon Soloveitchik would bring matza at those times of year when he wouldn't eat the bread. The first yoshon bakery was in Chicago, where he lived.

No other yeshiva was makpid on this, so the roshei yeshiva (R' Hutner etc.) clearly did not hold that it was something to be makpid on, at least not for the masses. No idea what they did privately.

I looked for yoshon in the index to the Igros Moshe. No listing.

Crayon210

Sun, Apr 29 2007, 8:06 pm

Health is a Virture wrote:

I think if the Rebbe were machmir on yoshon, someone would have found out and we all would be machmir as well.

Quote:

The truth of the matter is is that only in like the past 10-15 years (after the Rebbe was niftar) has it become sooo much easier to keep yashan, and so when he was alive he did not feel it necessary to change his ruling, but who knows? maybe now he would?

Many people would also say that the cholov stam kuloh by R' Feinstein was for a certain time and place. Nowadays, when it is so easy to get cholov yisrael milk and products, why be meikel on this?

As Motek said above, Chassidim are moser nefesh to do what has to be done. Shluchim in the middle of nowhere do not compromise on Cholov Yisroel, no matter how difficult it is. If the yoshon issue were one of convenience, it would not have been enough for the Rebbe to say we're not makpid. It's just not how we work.

shalhevet

Mon, Apr 30 2007, 4:40 am

Motek wrote:

I agree with you Motek. It's hard for me to understand why someone with yiras shamayim would not be makpid on something which is a safeik mid'oraisa (let's say according to several poskim and not just a da'as yachid) if there is not some major difficulty in keeping it (and then he would ask a shaila if his rov holds that it is indeed a chiyuv or if he can be meikel). So it is hard for me to understand why someone would shave (unless it is going to cause him parnassa problems for example) or eat yashon if he lives in a place where it is relatively easy to obtain (of course all these relatively / major difficulties are open to someone's individual interpretation). Obviously if his rav holds that it is d'oraisa he has to do it even if it entails major difficulties, but we are talking here about a situation where his rav says he doesn't have to be makpid.

Quote:

As far as in the US - my father told me that the Soloveitchiks were the only (public figures) ones to be makpid many decades ago. R' Aharon Soloveitchik would bring matza at those times of year when he wouldn't eat the bread. The first yoshon bakery was in Chicago, where he lived.

No other yeshiva was makpid on this, so the roshei yeshiva (R' Hutner etc.) clearly did not hold that it was something to be makpid on, at least not for the masses. No idea what they did privately.

I looked for yoshon in the index to the Igros Moshe. No listing.

We are not discussing here what people USED to do. A rov gives his psak for the time and place where he lives. I understand from this thread that today, at least in some places in Chutz La'aretz, it is relatively easy to be makpid on yashan. So you need to ask a rav today who lives in that place, what you should do. Maybe rabbonim didn't tell people to be makpid on it years ago because it would have caused great hardship and there are opinions that you don't have to keep it in Chul? Maybe those same rabbonim would have said today that you should be makpid? And maybe they wouldn't.

So we have to do what Hashem tells us in the Torah -
edited by mod2

sarahd

Mon, Apr 30 2007, 5:45 am

EstiS wrote:

we also don't use the terminology "niftar" on a tzaddik no matter which chassidus or non chassidus he is leader of.

Huh? I never heard of that before. I've never noticed anyone, in print or in speech, use a different word than niftar to describe anyone's passing. (Except maybe sometimes histalkus - used by a chassid for his own rebbe.) Confused

Unless maybe it's only Lubavitchers who are makpid not to use the term "niftor" for any tzaddik?

sarahd

Mon, Apr 30 2007, 6:03 am

Crayon210 wrote:

Quote:

Maybe it's only like this in Chabad, but when the Rebbe says "we aren't makpid on something", it's a bit gaivadik to then be makpid on that thing. Confused

Quote:

Because the Rebbe said we aren't makpid. I don't need to be frummer than the Rebbe. Confused

You know, I can understand and respect this attitude, but it leads me to a question. Why is this an appropriate attitude when it comes to Lubavitchers not keeping yoshon, but when other posters write that their rabbanim say that they are not makpid on Cholov Yisroel, Lubavitch posters react with horror?

Motek

Mon, Apr 30 2007, 10:44 am

I'm surprised ... you don't understand the difference? Come on ...

Chalav Yisrael has been observed by Jews uninterruptedly through history and nobody at all disputes the need to have chalav Yisrael. Whether one can make use of a heter of government laws doesn't take away from the fact that all poskim hold that milk must be guaranteed not to be taken from non-kosher animals.

Yoshon, on the other hand, was not observed for centuries by the greatest rabbonim and poskim. Great poskim in the US such as R' Moshe Feinstein who passed away when some people were already taking on yoshon, did not announce that it should be observed. My father spoke to Rabbi Tuvia Goldstein, a posek in Brooklyn and a contemporary, friend, and colleague of R' Moshe, who dismissed the yoshon issue. He passed away in 2003. R' Tuvia said the Satmar Rebbe held the same as he.

Obviously, among frum Jews who are careful and even eager to do mitzvos b'hiddur, the issue is not one of easy-hard. Poskim are VERY concerned about what people USED to do. The way my father put it, when Ashkenazic Jewry for many centuries are noheg a certain way, to come along and say you want to change it is no small thing!

by the way #1 - it's not only about about shaving, it's about trimming, even with scissors

by the way #2 for sarahd, maybe you would edit to "some Lubavitchers" so nobody thinks you are casting aspersions on all ... Wink

shalhevet

Mon, Apr 30 2007, 11:21 am

Motek wrote:

Motek, you didn't answer Sarah's question.

She asked why it is that when Rav Y says that (say) one can be meikel on CY, Lubavitchers on this site start shouting that it can't possibly be right, because no way should you be meikel.
And then if the same Rav Y would say one should be machmir on yoshon then Lubavitchers start shouting that it can't possibly be right, because no way should you be machmir.

Meaning, that whenever an issue comes up here where there is a machlokes haposkim some Lubavitchers basically shout that if you don't do what they do then it is unforgiveable FOR EVERYONE, not just for Lubavitchers. It's irrelevant to this particular question the issue of CY and/or yashan.

amother

Mon, Apr 30 2007, 12:06 pm

Just as a side note..... Being makpid on "yoshon" is experiencing somewhat of a renaissance in the yeshivish world in the US. For example, a posek told us that 25 years ago, the food served in Lakewood yeshiva was not necessarily yoshon, but nowadays it is. Or another example-- in many large cities, almost all the kosher restaurants will have a "yoshon" menu (a list of the yoshon items). When I speak to people who have always been makpidon yoshon, I hear that this was not so common until the past 10 or 15 years.

I know that one of the major poskim in my city will not tell people to keep yoshon unless they specificially ask (he won't get up in shul and say, "everyone keep yoshon now). If asked by an individual , he will tell people to make an effort do to it. This posek is from Lakewood.

I am not really so sure why people today are not so makpid on it-- unless of course, you have a mesorah from your family/Rebbe, etc. Because there really is a strong makor for it.

FWIW, we are makpid on yoshon in the house only.