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Is AP spoiling my kids??? -Rant
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JRKmommy




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 11:37 am
"The No-Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley is a great book, because it addresses ways to have everyone sleep through the night from an AP friendly POV.

Do what works for you and your kids, period.

Personally, I discovered that AP didn't make my kids clingy - but my naturally clingy child needed AP. I was all set to co-sleep with her younger sibs - but they clearly preferred to sleep on their own.

My lightest baby got carried a lot. My heaviest didn't. I don't think that it promotes bonding if I'm in pain with every step I take, and my joints went totally out of whack with my big boy (12 lb 5 oz at 1 month = mom getting steroid shots for bursitis).
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HindaRochel




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 11:57 am
LOL JRK...I use to carry my kids around till 4, but then they were lightweights. Still are. It comes naturally. I'm fairly short, and my daughter when she was in 6th grade, was mistaken for a 3rd grader. She wasn't even in school, here or anywhere, in 3rd grade!!!
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 12:06 pm
It is interesting. You know, in France we have a tv that goes like that: first, they videotape a family a few days. Then, they invite them on tv and have psychiatrists and docs comment on the way of life.

Of course they don't select the average Frenchy because it's not interesting, but families with a problem or something unusual. Like families with 7 children, 50 years old mom, "Very young couple" (according to their criteria dh and I could participate for that Rolling Eyes ). This week it was a natural mom. She was wearing her baby all day and sleeping with him (he was abt 1 year old). She still breastfed him.

The psychiatrist said he found it very problematic because the mom spent more time with the kid than with her husband, that the kid would be awfully spoilt and he also thought it was not normal to breastfeed that long.
He said cosleeping was dangerous for the baby but also the couple, and then the father said he was sooo fed up with it. It was very sad. I thought it was a good example of what happens in France, people often comment that I'm "too devoted" because they wouldn't want to go out with the baby ("not romantic and I need some time without him!!") or because I love holding the baby in my arms (instead of carriage) or having her on my knees in the restaurants.

BUT at the same time they can't help stopping us in the streets to look at her, say she's cute and big and not afraid of people, some tourists even take pics:twisted:

Personally I couldn't wear the baby all day, actually I never do it. I find it harder than carrying her - dh says it's not difficult for him but he didn't have an epidural LOL. I also wouldn't sleep with her because I would be afraid that I will have to fight against it when she'll be older.
I did it in the maternity and I had to hide from the nurses because they were so anti. The threats ranged from "you'll roll on her" to "ok you really don't want to sleep normally and get better?? she'll be clingy and needy, don't come and complain!". B'h she slept in her room the first night at home, no problem at all.So it's all relative and as long as it works......
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Pickle Lady




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 12:23 pm
I don't do all of AP but I do co-sleep. But I have a crib in my room (pack-play with a bassinet) where I put the baby down for naps during the day. On nights when I want to be intimate with my husband, I put the baby in the bassinet. Is that still AP. All 3 of my kids started sleeping in a crib without crying it out. My current baby is 14 months and I still nurse her when she wants it. Its probably 50% of her diet but it becoming less and less each week. She comes into my bed during the middle of the night to nurse. I am OK with it.
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shayna82




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 12:48 pm
I just cant not compare my two kids: my oldest who has a tenser and more serious personality and not clingy at all, who nursed for only 6 months due to nursing issues that could not be resolved. I struggled every time I nursed and I think he felt my frustration. now hes almost 4, and hes very independent and not a mommys boy in any sense of the word. my youngest, who is 2 next sunday nursed until he was 16 months is a total mommys boy, much more clingier and can be really kvetchy. I nursed him wehenver he wanted, nursing went smooth, calm mommy. so, for me, I think the nursing definitly contribueted to that aspect of their personalities.
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mimivan




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 1:10 pm
Hmmm..I nursed my first one until he was 2, and he is quite independent..always wanting to do things by himself..yet he is quite affectionate b'h...my baby is very clingy, and I have to let him cry a bit more than my first, but I try to feed on demand. Then again, their personalities can change.

I try to do most of AP, although there are those unavoidable crying times I can't seem to avoid. I do have my gripes with AP, but when I hear of all the sleep new parents who don't co-sleep lose, or about the frazzled nerves from ferberizing, I guess it evens out in the end..it really depends on what kind of person one is, what style is better for the individual etc..
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Mama Shifra




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:12 pm
I was reading in You Are Your Child's First Teacher about this problem that you mentioned: a child who had been parented using attachment parenting would then never be able to be put down or go to bed himself/herself. For instance, in You Are Your Child's First Teacher, she quotes Dr. Burton White "If you find that you are picking up your child and playing with her seven or eight times an hour for six or seven hours a day, you are probably moving into a pattern that will cause your some grief fairly soon."

She also wrotes the following story: "A friend of mine who spent many years in Mexico wanted to practice "total mothering," by always carrying her baby in a rebozo or shawl as most of the Mexican village babies are carried. By the time her son was nine months old, she felt burned out and was beginning to resent never being able to put him down without him fussing. Then she realized she had made a mistake only a foreigner could make. Yes, the babies she had seen were almost always held, carried and receiving attention, but not always by the mother. Sometimes the aunt had him in the sling, sometimes a cousin or older sibling, other times it was grandma who was tending him, while mother sewed or sorted beans nearby. How much you hold and carry your baby can have an effect on him, but it also needs to be balanced with your won needs and emotional well-being."

Perhaps the problem is as Barbara Dewey writes (quoted in You Are Your Child's First Teacher), "they are devoted parents who have read everything they can possibly read about parenting and are trying desperately to apply ALL of it! They are usually mothers who have given up a meaningful career to stay at home and raise their children, and they feel a need to raise children FULL TIME in order to justify their being home with them. They carry their child around a good portion of the time and interact with the child every waking minute...."

Rahima Baldwin Dancy, author of You Are Your Child's First Teacher, feels that you obviously need to nurse your baby when he/she needs to be nursed, held often, cared for and loved. But the baby, when content and quiet, needs to be left alone to sleep or look about him/her or else he/she will become "dependent on constant attention from the surroundings, and a vicious cycle of bad habits is created."

Evidently in the Winter 1994 issue of Mothering, Jean Leidloff, who wrote The Continuum Concept, that in the Yequanan culture, while the baby is held in a sling continually until he/she crawls, the baby may occasionally be played with, but most of the time, the one holding the baby is not paying attention to him/her, but rather is working. Barbara Dewey, quoted in You Are Your Child's First Teacher, writes that "In less materialistic cultures and in our grandparents' day, parents had to work most of the time on procuring the basics. In those cultures the child naturally got to see those activities." So the suggestion is to involve your children in the activities of daily living--ie. cook with your children, sweep with your children (several Montessori catalogs sell broom and mops for children--my two year old loves to mop the floor!), have your children set the table, clean windows with water and a rag, etc.

As far as a child who resists bedtime, I would read the book Liberated Parents, Liberated Children: Your Guide to a Happier Family by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish, which teaches you how to be firm with your child, but kind. It is written in story format, so it is not only a good parenting book, but it is a good read too. The follow up book to it, which is more practical, is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk, also by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. But in short, I would help the child to bed--get into pajamas, brush teeth, read a story, etc. and then say, "It's time to go to sleep. Mommy is going into the other room now. Have a good night. I will be listening for you and making sure you are all right." And then just leave. If he/she follows, put him back in and repeat. After a point, you could say something to the affect of "I don't feel like staying with you if you keep carrying on like this. I need to go now."

Good luck!
Shifra

P.S. By the way, Dr. Sears, in one of his older books The Fussy Baby: How to Bring Out the Best in Your High-Need Child, did give recommendations for using baby seats or baby swings if you absolutely could not hold the baby anymore for whatever reason. So if you cannot hold the baby, for whatever reason, put him/her down! Don't feel like you cannot give your older child a bath without holding the baby. Dr. Sears was not that dogmatic! I think, though, that with people keeping their babies in car seats or strollers for hours a day, he was concerned about the babies not being touched enough or being too immobile to develop their motor skills properly. I heard at a La Leche League convention years ago that a lot of professionals are worried about children who spend hours a day in car seats and strollers (see http://www.llli.org/NB/NBMarApr01p44.html). But for the amount of time that you are bathing your older child, I'm sure is not harmful.
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amother






Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:33 pm
Op here.

Thanks for the very sensible advice (everyone) I especiallly liked Shifra's point, and it occured to me today, that in the primitive cultures "it takes a village to raise a child" and if someone hears a baby crying, they just pick him up, whoever they are. In our self-contained homes, without extended family, it is much harder to maintain this intense AP style.

But there are many beautiful things about AP... and yes, I like Mazlish and Faber...

they all need to be balanced somehow with mommy's sense
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JRKmommy




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:38 pm
Ruchel wrote:
It is interesting. You know, in France we have a tv that goes like that: first, they videotape a family a few days. Then, they invite them on tv and have psychiatrists and docs comment on the way of life.

Of course they don't select the average Frenchy because it's not interesting, but families with a problem or something unusual. Like families with 7 children, 50 years old mom, "Very young couple" (according to their criteria dh and I could participate for that Rolling Eyes ). This week it was a natural mom. She was wearing her baby all day and sleeping with him (he was abt 1 year old). She still breastfed him.

The psychiatrist said he found it very problematic because the mom spent more time with the kid than with her husband, that the kid would be awfully spoilt and he also thought it was not normal to breastfeed that long.
He said cosleeping was dangerous for the baby but also the couple, and then the father said he was sooo fed up with it. It was very sad. I thought it was a good example of what happens in France, people often comment that I'm "too devoted" because they wouldn't want to go out with the baby ("not romantic and I need some time without him!!") or because I love holding the baby in my arms (instead of carriage) or having her on my knees in the restaurants.

BUT at the same time they can't help stopping us in the streets to look at her, say she's cute and big and not afraid of people, some tourists even take pics:twisted:

Personally I couldn't wear the baby all day, actually I never do it. I find it harder than carrying her - dh says it's not difficult for him but he didn't have an epidural LOL. I also wouldn't sleep with her because I would be afraid that I will have to fight against it when she'll be older.
I did it in the maternity and I had to hide from the nurses because they were so anti. The threats ranged from "you'll roll on her" to "ok you really don't want to sleep normally and get better?? she'll be clingy and needy, don't come and complain!". B'h she slept in her room the first night at home, no problem at all.So it's all relative and as long as it works......


Those are the sort of shows that get me screaming at the television set!

Bf for AT LEAST one year is recommended by the AAP, bf for the first 2 years is recommended by the World Health Organization.

Re sleeping: Different babies have different sleep needs, as I said. We tried other things with dd#1, and ended up co-sleeping because I stopped having any energy to pace up and down the hallway outside with apt with the baby between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. every night/early morning, and because she'd scream until she threw up if we just left her in the crib. We eventually learned how to improve the sleep (consistent routine, not letting her get overtired, keeping the home quiet and dark and the right temperature, read story in bed), and if we're good with all of that, she drifts off to sleep quite easily. Spending 5 min beside her while she's falling asleep isn't a big deal. The problems, I figured out, came from relying on bf and co-sleeping exclusively to get a child to sleep, and not working on the other elements of good sleep habits.
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mimivan




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:55 pm
[quote="JRKmommy] Spending 5 min beside her while she's falling asleep isn't a big deal. The problems, I figured out, came from relying on bf and co-sleeping exclusively to get a child to sleep, and not working on the other elements of good sleep habits.[/quote]

AMEN!! Very Happy
But why did it take me two kids to finally figure that one out? embarrassed
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nylon




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 4:47 pm
I've taken a balanced approach to AP. DD is always by me--but not always on me. One, I didn't take it as necessary or desirable for her to be carried 100% of the time, especially as she gets older and wants to play more. Even Dr Sears' book says "take a balanced approach to babywearing". Also, she isn't so keen on being in the sling if I'm sitting down. She'd rather be in her bouncer or be held in my arms.

Co-sleeping I didn't do for space reasons--I think next time I'll get one of those co-sleeper bassinets rather than a regular bassinet next to the bed. I'm unable to breastfeed (and believe me I did everything) but she's bottle-fed on demand, not scheduled, and has settled into her own pattern. I will say straight off that I am VERY lucky--she slept through the night at 6 weeks.

For me the main lesson I got from Dr Sears' book was a general philosophy and approach of being sensitive to what the baby wants, being close, spending a lot of time together. Things like babywearing, co-sleeping, etc are simply tools to help you achieve that. Some of the "militant APers" seem to confuse the tools with the principle.
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dmum




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 6:06 pm
just as an interesting point re putting babies to play on their stomachs: my 3 mth old dd really gets distressed on her stomach. I mentioned this to her consultant (she has ongoing medical issues) who seemed NOT AT ALL concerned about it, to my great surprise. "oh, some babies are just bottom-shufflers, it's genetic" (true, older dd was also) and that was that! weird, but I guess there's a reason he's the pediatric consultant and im not.
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chavamom




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 6:37 pm
I don't have time to read all the posts, but here is my $.02 fwiw. You can certainly teach your child that they don't have to be held at all times and to fall asleep on their own and still be "AP" (if you like that label) - without letting your child scream. Try reading the book "The No Cry Sleep Solution" for starters.

And while babies need to be held often, and a sling helps this, from about 3 mos of age or so, they can be encouraged to entertain themselves (such as on a blanket on the floor) with you in view for longer and longer periods of time.

I think you have swallowed the "AP message" and now want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is much to be gained from AP techniques. But the approach is different for a 3 mos. old, 6 mos. old, 18 mos. old and so on.
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nylon




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 23 2007, 6:50 pm
dmum wrote:
just as an interesting point re putting babies to play on their stomachs: my 3 mth old dd really gets distressed on her stomach. I mentioned this to her consultant (she has ongoing medical issues) who seemed NOT AT ALL concerned about it, to my great surprise. "oh, some babies are just bottom-shufflers, it's genetic" (true, older dd was also) and that was that! weird, but I guess there's a reason he's the pediatric consultant and im not.

I find that mine still prefers tummy time lying on my chest, rather than on the floor. Have you tried that? It is important to try to get some tummy time now that babies sleep on their backs (DD's developing a flat spot and I've got to prop her up so it doesn't get worse!)
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 10 2007, 12:11 pm
I just dropped in here to solve a problem and came across this.

For me it is somewhat of an emotional issue for these reasons. The only parenting practice I have seen that is always bad is using a book to raise your child. My advice there is put them all in a bag and walk to the nearest dumpster.

To AP. It not only gives lopsided advice, but that advice is based on a politically based retelling of history and current facts. Even though my DH grew up in Guatamala I will not repeat about the fallacy that it is always holding baby. But I will tell you that Indians will let a child wander around by the mothers at a cooking fire and let them learn for themselves that it is hot. I live near another nonwestern, less educated culture and I promise you some arab methods of "chinuch" would make your hair stand on end.

There is a concept that the "they" (evil capitalists?) tricked women into leaving their babies because the mothers labor was necessary. "They" introduced new methods to separate mother and child. An underlying assumption is that all separation is bad and co-dependence (read symbiotic) is good.

In both psychological and esp. the Torah, the opposite is true. A child has a need rather early on to be a separate entity according to its maturity level. A parent has to know their child well, love them enough to be the support when holding on is necessary and to let go when not. A child learns to walk much easier if allowed to fall a couple of times. A gan child will be more adept socially if allowed to work out their own normal issues with peers, even more so in grade school and teenagers.

My advice is look at your child honestly, is he ready for what you want to put on him. I was advised strongly by hospital nurse, ped and experienced mothers to put the new baby immediately in another room. It was a success 6 times with no failure. I sat by the crib, rocked sang, etc, But when baby was out, so was I, to my room. This despite the fact that I sleep extremely heavily and if baby cried someone else always brought him to me unless there was only me. DH would even bring baby to latch on and take him back after feeding w/o waking me.

My dd co-slept with my gs out of laziness, no book. At nearly 2 they went to their rav and said he was bothering at night. When the rav asked how and they said when he woke up he wanted them to play with him so he pulled hair, peyos and beard the rav realized he was in their beds. He said the kid doesn't have a problem, his parents have a chinuch prob. This rav has 12 good kids. They never admitted their mistake but did not repeat it w/#2, who has always slept in her crib.
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