double standard | Imamother

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 1:40 pm

I know a few families who say they are charedi but they do things that would say otherwise. one of them, the parents watch videos with earphones so that their children do not hear the movies and they listen to english music.

how can you say that you are purely charedi (and one of these families says that they are ultra charedi) if you are watching movies?

also, what kind of double standard is that? that the parents watch movies (with headsets nonetheless) but want to make sure that their children dont? I really do not understand. can someone explain?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 2:09 pm

brooklyn wrote:

There are lots of things that are being done which you may call a double standard. Whether it be the section 8 issues, the welfare, foodstamp, working off the books issues. You are opening a can of worms. People will do what they want. Very few are ultra pure and honest. Let it be, unless you are looking for some nasty responses.

I just wanted to know how ppl can call themselves one way and do another in private, you know what I mean? maybe I should hav put this on the MO section...or some other section, but it is something that really bothers me.....

mimivan

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 2:56 pm

I consider myself as someone who at least tries to be haredi, and I'm not offended by this post at all. We all have our taayves and nisayonot. But that doesn't make one a hypocrite for wearing a kappota or a sheitel if we mess up and give in anymore than it would make one an alcoholic for getting drunk once or twice a year.

I'm a BT and I planned on becoming MO and not going further than that, but I fell in love with Chabad Chassidus and went from there. I didn't fall in love with the restrictions, but I saw the reason for them. The Alter Rebbe said that whatever is not l'shem shamayim is almost like an aveira, and I realize this is a very high standard to hold by, and yes, I have those moments when I am not holding by the highest standard. However, the difference is the attitude: do I want to make x thing a real part of my life or not? Which is part of my identity as a Jew and which isn't.

I know women who keep kosher here in Israel , Shabbat, and taharas haMisphaca, while they dress in tight jeans, tank tops and bleach their hair blond. I heard a lot of them don't want to look dati because they don't want to be called hypocrites if they "mess up" (there is real pressure in this country that if one wears a kippah or a tichel that your conduct has to be perfect, to not complain at the post office if someone cuts in front of you, or else you hear "You call yourself religious?!!??") It is inspiring that these women can still keep so many mitzvas while living a secular lifestyle, but how sad to be kept from progressing in Yiddishkeit because of fear of the charge of hypocrisy!!

amother

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:04 pm

I debated about posting this. We are charedi, we live in charedi neighborhood, our children go to charedi schools, our friends are all charedi etc. Yet some people do have taivos. DH does the kind of things you are talking about and it practically breaks me in half since it makes me worry so about what will be with my children. Is he still charedi? He learns in kollel. Wears a black hat. I was told once to judge the Torah by its precepts and not necessarily its followers. You should probably judge communities in a similar way. Besides, as far as the people I know this is defnitely the minority of the charedi population.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:12 pm

amother wrote:

what about a husband and wife who watch a movie together on the computer with earphones? the kids could walk in at any moment and the parents may not even hear the kids?????? and the couple that I am thinking about are just like you described, the husband wears a black hat and suit at all times, learns in kollel. but they dont just do it every so tyva, they have an actual stash of dvds in their home. is that not a double standard?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:19 pm

Raisin wrote:

Thee are plenty of chareidim who watch videos and even TV, especially out of Israel. In Israel e/thing seems to be much more black and white.

I am surprised you are surprised.

Re the headphones and not wanting the kids to watch. There is plenty of stuff that is ok for adults, but you wouldn't want a kid to see e.g holocaust movies.

More likely they don't want their kids to tell their friends or teachers though.

why is it ok out of israel? when I said they watched things, I was not talking about educational tv. they were watching reguar blockbuster /hollywood films....

and dont you think that it is a double standard for someone to do something but for them to not want it to get out that they do that? to me, you do what you want your kids to see and tell not the other way around.

amother

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:19 pm

I have heard this argument before, and I do understand it, but we are all human and we all have desires and if somone for example watches movies and doesn't want their children to, I think that is great they want more for their children maybe one day they will find the strength to give it up.
Maybe for the moment they have a stressfull job and need to unwind at the end of the day and that is the way they do, or maybe they grew up with it and it is very hard to give it up, let us all look for the good in people although sometimes very hard and be "dan l'kaf zechut"
"don't throw the baby out with the bath water"

shalhevet

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:56 pm

Shabbat, I am totally with you.

I have to admit that I have been shocked by many things I have read on this forum. People who consider themselves frum/chareidi/chassidish think it's fine to watch tv (only in the bedroom), go to movies (only if there's no minyan there) and surf the net (they have a filter of course).

If you are watching TV and you don't let your kids, you are just giving chinuch to sheker and deception.
And don't come to me with it's only the news/ an exercise video/ a holocaust documentary. Are you trying to tell me they're free from anything assur? That every woman there is dressed tzniyusly? That the news is free from violence?

You can't really get statistics from here because, by definition, everyone here has Internet. But I know many, many families in EY who don't have a computer even. We didn't, until I needed it for work.

And before you jump on me, we asked our rav about having a computer and Internet. I am the only one in the house who uses the computer (not to speak of the Internet) and only for work and ... you've guessed it... imamother Wink

. I don't even go to links people post here in case I find something I shouldn't.

The only thing I disagree with you, Shabbat, is that everyone has their own yeitzer hara and if we start saying - keep everything or keep nothing, we are not going to have anyone left. Sad

For one person it's loshon horo, for another it's not davenning or making a brocho properly, for a third it's lying.

But throwing out your TV, DVD or whatever should be part of being a frum Jew just like no-one would say "I'm frum, but I just have a yetzer horo I'm fighting with not to smoke/ cook/ drive a car on Shabbos." I would say that the media today is the CAUSE of the yetzer horo and not the RESULT (there are threads on what movies, Internet etc have done to marriage and kedusha).

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 4:31 pm

My cousin's rav (chossid) has tons of dvds, one of the biggest collections I've seen ever! He doesn't hide them. Those I have recognized were clean.
I have read/heard very frum ravs saying it's ok to watch clean movies and internet with a filter. In some schools they actually teach you tricks to know when to avert your eyes and when to stop averting, the school I am thinking about is very frum (but the teachers said someone who knows he won't use these tricks shouldn't watch at all). I used to think all charedim were against tv but apparently no.

I think the double standard only begins when you can do things your children cannot, except the obvious (some movies are not for children, same for books).

Raisin

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 6:04 pm

Shabbat, there was a thread on here a while back about what clean movies could someone watch with her husband. Some people (I don't know if they call themsleves Chareidi) will watch movies but will check very carefully to make sure they are "kosher". (no nudity etc) One women mentioned she watched the movies first and then would let her husband see it.

Also, this couple may rationalise, they are frum already, secure in their emuna etc but they do not want to expose their kids to movies since they are so young and it will have a much greater effect.

Very possibly kids who grow up in such a house will end up doing the identical thing - watching movies but not letting their kids see.

nylon

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 6:39 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

And what about a BT family?

Such as - DH and I became frum in college but that doesn't mean we want our kids to go.

Or - I read Enlgish dinim books but I'd rather my kid learn from the source....

I think those examples are different. in the first case, you're not talking about something you do now, but a life experience before you became religious. And the 2nd is not about hypocrisy but about ability. If you could read seforim in Hebrew you would, right?

I think the issue is about people who publicly espouse one thing, but do something else, and teach their kids (either explicitly or by example) that it is OK to lie. If it's OK to watch TV as long as you hide it, what else is OK too?

Everyone has their own tayva, yes. But that does not mean we should teach kids it's OK to pay lip service to rules (school takanon says no TV or Internet but we keep a laptop in the bedroom). Occasionally giving in to temptation is not the same thing as making a habit of it. You wouldn't keep a separate set of dishes for treif take out either...

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Apr 24 2007, 6:28 am

Quote:

Shabbat, there was a thread on here a while back about what clean movies could someone watch with her husband. Some people (I don't know if they call themsleves Chareidi) will watch movies but will check very carefully to make sure they are "kosher". (no nudity etc) One women mentioned she watched the movies first and then would let her husband see it.
Also, this couple may rationalise, they are frum already, secure in their emuna etc but they do not want to expose their kids to movies since they are so young and it will have a much greater effect.
Very possibly kids who grow up in such a house will end up doing the identical thing - watching movies but not letting their kids see

im sorry but I dont buy that. a movie does have an impact on you, no matter what age you are. I am talking from the perspective of a person who DOES watch movies, and I know that they can effect you in many different ways.
and as far as you said about maybe they only watch clean movies, nope that is not the case at all.

Quote:

I think the issue is about people who publicly espouse one thing, but do something else, and teach their kids (either explicitly or by example) that it is OK to lie. If it's OK to watch TV as long as you hide it, what else is OK too?

Everyone has their own tayva, yes. But that does not mean we should teach kids it's OK to pay lip service to rules (school takanon says no TV or Internet but we keep a laptop in the bedroom). Occasionally giving in to temptation is not the same thing as making a habit of it. You wouldn't keep a separate set of dishes for treif take out either...

thank you poster, this is what I was talking about mostly. how can you have videos in your home when a school says that a kids family can not even have a computer? or tell everyone that something is not correct to do but they do that thing........its not correct, its kind of like do as I say but not as I do but the opposite.......

Quote:

Shabbatiscoming, why do you love bringing out the bad points in people? Touching on OS, "double standards" as you call it.... People arent perfect, get over it! Im sure you have your bad traits too. We all do. We're not malachim, we're HUMAN! We all have what to work on, and if its not one thing it will be the other depending on your own personal level!

I dont want to bring out the bad points, but to me living a double standard is not correct. if you say that you are charedi, then you are charedi, you can not have it both ways. to me someone who says that they are charedi BUT they watch movies in secret, well, that is telling me something pretty big. this means that they know its wrong for them but they do it anyway.

Quote:

shabbatiscoming, you have a lot on your mind today.
I was thinking the same thing.

I did, I had an incident with a nephew that put me in a very bad mood and made me think about a loooooooot of different things having to do with double standards in life and living as a frum jew......

HindaRochel

Tue, Apr 24 2007, 8:02 am

One of my friends who had convereted to Judaism once told me that her Rabbi told her "don't judge us by the people, judge us by our Torah."

We all strive to do our best and I bet most of us fail to meet our highest standards. The people who watch movies when their schools say they can't have a t.v.? Perhaps the school is the best for the child and they themselves don't have an issue. In part I think the schools, in that are, are trying to monitor the children way to much, but that is a separate issue.

In terms of people who espouse one thing but do the other? Sometimes they feel they must talk the talk to be accepted in a given community. How stratisfied as a people do we want to be? Do we want only X type of people living near and among us? It is a legit question and I'm not stating what I feel the answer should be. However some people may feel that a certain style of life is the only "right" one, because of how they were raised or where they went to school, yet that really isn't the style of life that suits them. It is only a false perception that lifestyle X is the only Torah true one. Perhaps the person erred in joining a certain community, or perhaps the person married someone from a particular community and the lifestyle isn't suitable for them.

Perhaps they are just unable to stop a certain behavior, feel it is wrong, but don't know how to stop.

If I'm hearing you right the reason you are upset is that there are members of this group who are judging people one way for certain types of behavior, while at the same time engaging in other types of behavior that goes against their moral standards.

It seems to me that perhaps you are feeling judged? Maybe I'm wrong but I do know the feeling of having someone being cricitcal of us because we did or didn't do a certain thing, yet at the same time they were engaging in a different behavior which was also kineged the Torah.