ALARMING! Please Only Respond If You Support Vaccinations

out-of-towner

Sat, May 31 2014, 10:56 pm

And I just want to reiterate, as I don't know if anyone read through my long megilla of a post:

THIS THREAD STATES CLEARLY THAT IT IS FOR PRO-VAXERS ONLY. PERIOD. ANYONE ELSE SHOULD PLEASE LEAVE YOUR COMMENTS, DEBATES, AND OTHER MOTIVES FOR ANOTHER THREAD. You are welcome to start your own thread or continue an existing one that wasn't locked, as most of them have been.

Us pro-vaxers are sick and tired of being questioned and having to prove ourselves. It is enough. This thread was started as a place for us to vent. Please respect it as such.

Thank you! Smile

Okay rant over!

mammala120

Sat, May 31 2014, 10:56 pm

Scotty wrote:

Vey Zmir.

I always tell anti-vaccinators to RESEARCH what it is we're vaccinating AGAINST, and they'll run to the doctor for the shots before they can finish hyperventilating.

Seriously, has any anti-vax mom ever REALLY read on what polio is?!?!?!? And that's just the first step. It nauseates me. Be safe and be glad Hashem has given us the priceless opportunity to avoid such piteous and painful agony!!!!

this is one side of the story. what do you have to say to those who get terrible and even deadly side-effects to these vaccines. this can go on and on. those that do not get side effects will thank the lord and those who do get side effects will curse the doctors.

we can't win either way. there are risks whether you vaccinate or not.

imasinger

Sat, May 31 2014, 11:06 pm

Regardless of the title of the thread, I think it is only proper to temper a response with compassion for a mother who went through the trauma of a bad reaction to vaxing a child.

That being said, mamale120, may I gently point out that telling people to be quiet and DAVEN could just as well be applied in the other direction.

People could say that most people do fine with vaccines, so everyone should just vaccinate, be quiet, because it's all in Hashem's hands whether anyone has an adverse reaction or not.

We are all informed by our experiences. The trick is to be sure we are informed by reliable sources beyond that.

PEACH magazine is not providing reliable information, and that is scary.

Last edited by imasinger on Sat, May 31 2014, 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Lady Bug

Sat, May 31 2014, 11:07 pm

Back to business.

(I say ignore the antivax rabble trousers on this thread and let's stick to the topic)

wife2 wrote:

People are scared of side effects and horror stories from vaccinations. They need to have accurate, scientific, NEUTRAL information to know how to make vaccination decisions.

They need to hear how common and likely a disease is to happen, what the fatality rate or severity of the disease is, and if the disease is treatable or not. They need to look at statistics to see how many babies died or had complications from meningitis, whooping cough, etc. BEFORE they had these vaccinations and see how much the numbers went down because of vaccinations

They need to be informed the right way. If they know nothing, and the only information they are informed about is from PEACH then they will just believe it.

They need to see both sides in a neutral way.

Liking this was not enough. I say to base some of the content to counter the (sometimes realistic) concerns raised by antivaxers on the other threads. Also, the best way to get this information out to the people it should target is to follow the lead of PEACH - in a nice, colored, easy to read magazine delivered at the doors.

seeker

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 12:05 am

amother wrote:

Can you please elaborate what she's under-informed about?

in item #2, I doubt she has thoroughly researched how the vaccine makers came to choose the chemical ingredients they use. It's not so simple to sub out something "safer" or more "natural."
item #3, this question is so elementary that it can only lead me to assume that the questioner has not done her homework.
item #4 is simply illogical argument. So, because I used the language under-informed, I guess I can call that under-informed about logical argument tactics.

I'm sorry this poster experienced an adverse reaction to a vaccine. I think that is a very good reason for her to stop vaccinating her child. It is also a very good reason to hope that others around her do their utmost in disease prevention so her child[ren] who can't have vaccines are less likely to catch diseases.

Needless to say, having her make assumptions about my own level of education and information did not actually make her arguments any more compelling.

Last edited by seeker on Sun, Jun 01 2014, 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 12:05 am

amother wrote:

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/05/01/lawrence-solomon-vaccines-cant-prevent-measles-outbreaks/
Interesting. So the MMR does or does not prevent the measles?

1. This does not belong on this thread.
2. Why are you amother?
3. 90% of the cases in the current outbreak are people who are unvaccinated or whose vaccination status is unknown (no records)
4. Why are you amother?
5. This does not belong on this thread.

amother

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 12:18 am

I discussed with my kids doc my worries abt parents being brainwashed and not vaxing.
I asked what he's going to do abt it.
He said he's in the middle f gathering real scientific research studies from a neutral standpoint which clearly shows that vaxing is not related to most of the claims. He said nothing in this world is perfect.
Just like there are risks when driving a car or flying in a plane, yes there are risks when vaxing and taking meds. But the risks are few and far between and the gain of vaxing definitely outweighs the risks.
He is putting together the facts from the research in a clear way for mothers that are concerned and he will make it available for his patients. He personally feels that going out and making fire abt the situation like PEACH did is counterproductive and propaganda like as well.
I am worried about my friends that have chosen not to vax their kids. I am not well versed enough to argue with them but I do hope to get my hands on the research packet that my kids doc is putting together for parents and share it with them.
My MIL read Peach and told me she's afraid for me to vax my kids. I told her I threw it out before I read it as I wasn't interested in brainwashing from an unknown magazine.
This mag is dangerous....

acemom

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 1:38 am

One thing that bothers me a lot about the anti-vaxxers is that they trust their child's doctor about everything else generally but not something as important as this. Unless of course we are dealing with people who don't trust conventional medicine at all- I see their point, but I would advise them to do REAL research.

I know several people who have asked their child's pediatrician about vaccines (different doctors). All doctors had the same response- I vaccinate my own kids too!

Conspiracy theories seem to be a new sport nowadays, about everything. If 9/11 was orchestrated by the US govt., why can't vaccines be dangerous?

seeker

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 2:06 am

acemom wrote:

1. There was a whole other thread recently about whether anti-vaxers trust doctors for other things. Search it, there were interesting points made on all sides.

2. This peach magazine seems to be aimed at people who are not into conventional medicine at all, e.g. the advertisers are purveyors of natural/holistic/homeopathic/etc type stuff.

Scrabble123

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 11:10 am

Has anyone followed the thread where mothers are admitting to be frustrated with their rabonim who did not support them giving a religious exemption against vaccines? I am happy to hear that rabonim are doing their part to protect our community (trusting medical proof which the Torah enforces), but I am none the less worried that mothers are arguing that rabonim do not have to be listened to because they rely on medical professionals. Is anyone else troubled by this? Both religiously and medically.

I agree that a Rov cannot comment on the efficacy and safety of vaccines, but rabonim do possess the ability to pasken weather giving or not giving vaccinate is in line with or against Halacha. It seems these mothers are not even interested in Halacha anymore. They don't trust doctors, don't trust rabonim who trust doctors...... I'm very concerned.

amother

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 12:35 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

I actually posted something there. Probably the wrong place for me. But, it was quotes from rabbanim. But, R' Elyashiv said we are obligated to vaccinate and it is permissible to force parents to vaccinate their children. R' Zilberstein says we are obligated. R' Dr. Akiva Tatz says we must. The rav of my community says it is an obligation of parents and children who do not vaccinate the schools can bar from entering. The rav of my shul said some people are just not normal. My dh's rosh hayeshiva said we are obligated and its an interesting halachic discussion. I have NEVER found a rav who said we are allowed to skip it. And, I have asked many, many people.

I have also asked why are we obligated many, many times, and I receive an answer along the same lines. It seems to me the big rabbanim today all hold we must and all with the same reason.

-amother in vaccine development.

amother

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 12:58 pm

amother wrote:

Vaccinations are very safe, it's been proven. Every single child in the UK should have had polio, mumps, rubella, TB, and a few more I can't remember. I'm about to have hepatitis B as it's compulsory for nursing and medical students.
I think you should take all the vaccinations you can get personally.

Do you see a reason for 2 day old babies to get it? There is no physical way possible for the vast majority of 2 day old babies to get Hep B (unless their parents have it and are not careful with bodily fluids). It's transmitted by direct or indicrect (used needle) exposure to bodily fluids. If you have exposure there is treatment at that time. So no reason to vaccinate a two day old for that.

amother

Sun, Jun 01 2014, 1:44 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

I agree that a Rov cannot comment on the efficacy and safety of vaccines, but rabonim do possess the ability to pasken weather giving or not giving vaccinate is in line with or against Halacha. It seems these mothers are not even interested in Halacha anymore. They don't trust doctors, don't trust rabonim who trust doctors...... I'm very concerned.

Just an aside. I find many rabbanim to be extremely well-educated in vaccination. I think they often can comment on the safety and efficacy because they have to understand in order to do paskan. I think we don't realize how much they do know! I spoke with one rav who knew so much more than I do!

But, it really scares me how they do not trust rabbanim or anyone else. How can the Jewish people survive if we don't trust our rabbanim? And going rav shopping?!? That is just beyond me. And to believe that they know more Torah than our chachamim?!? I'm just blown away from these comments.

I used to think people just need to understand vaccination and the premise better. Yes, there are weakness. But, there are no alternatives. The science/chemistry of our bodies restrains us. But, this isn't necessarily true. They think the entire world including every health organization, every pharma company, every doctor, every researcher, every science paper and 99.9% of rabbanim are all in cahoots and trying to kill children! I'm blown away.

-amother in vaccine development.