DH likes modern Israeli names, I like Yiddish. Help!

Motek

Thu, May 17 2007, 9:37 am

amother wrote:

I like Yiddish/traditional names like Raisel, Nechama, Shaindel, Ruchel.

You wrote "I like Yiddish" in the thread title, though in the post you wrote "Yiddish/traditional." Of course Nechama and Ruchel are Hebrew, not Yiddish, as I'm sure you know Smile

Ruchel

Thu, May 17 2007, 10:07 am

In fact we could say Ruchel is Yiddish... because in Hebrew it would be Rahel.. But Nechama is definitely Hebrew!

Crayon210

Thu, May 17 2007, 10:10 am

Are girls named "Ruchel" or is it just the pronunciation/nickname?

Ruchel

Thu, May 17 2007, 10:24 am

As far as I know, girls named Ruchel have the Yiddish prononciation and Rahel the Hebrew one, although some Rahel have a Yiddish nickname, especially when named after a Ruchel. Same goes for the Sarah/Sure, Miriam/Mirel...
Some Sephardim insist on calling you the Hebrew form, some Ashkenazim Yiddish-ize your name especially if you are Ashkenazi too... When I was at the rabbanut in Israel, one rav asked my mother's name, and when I told him let's say Chaya Mushka, he told me ok, just Chaya, I only need the Hebrew name. shock

Crayon210

Thu, May 17 2007, 10:26 am

But Ruchel and Rachel are spelled the same way, so the pronunciation doesn't really make a difference (in this regard).

Ruchel

Thu, May 17 2007, 10:36 am

In Hebrew yeah, but in English or French they are rather different.
Here I would say most people would go with the Hebrew way when seeing it in Hebrew,
But in French even Rahel gets regularly misprononced, every time I have to show my papers I'm ready to say "not Rael, not Rashel, not Rakel.... please" LOL

My grandma had it much harder with Ruchel though. More possibilities for misprononcing.

raizy

Sun, May 27 2007, 7:54 pm

what wrong with Rachel. the english way. or Rachelle the french way... what so hard about it?

Ruchel

Sun, May 27 2007, 8:08 pm

Rachelle is not so common I think... what's hard is the non Jews will prononce it rashel.

amother

Sun, May 27 2007, 10:54 pm

Update: I'm the OP. We've pretty much settled on Dina. I started the other thread yesterday asking for 2nd names that goes well with Dina. The catch is that Dina has to be first. So if you have any ideas, please reply to that post! Thanks.

yikes!

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 10:48 pm

levana!

mumoo

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 11:10 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

amother wrote:

There's actually a Lubavith minhag of giving a child two names, one Hebrew and one Yiddish. The Rebbe's name is Menachem Mendel, and the Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka-- in both cases, the first name is Hebrew and the second Yiddish.

Since Hebrew is Lashon Hakodesh and Yiddish Mammelashon, this is a way of honoring both traditions.

Can you quote a source for this minhag?

I don't have a source but there are so many names that do this:
tzvi hersh, dov ber, shoshana raizel, gittel tova, aryeh laib

ReallyRosie

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 11:43 pm

We chose a Hebrew/Yiddish name for our second daughter: Nili Kyla. My name is Gittel Ita, and I wanted another kid in the family with a Yiddish connection. Smile

I'm not a big fan of Yiddish boys names, but the girls names are lovely.

Ruchel

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 5:27 pm

mumoo wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

amother wrote:

Can you quote a source for this minhag?

I don't have a source but there are so many names that do this:
tzvi hersh, dov ber, shoshana raizel, gittel tova, aryeh laib

it's a translation to be understood in the country. Just like in Spain you would have Chaim Vidal, Penina Perla, and in France there was Tzvi Cerf, Yehuda Leon (while they were yiddish speakers too). Jews always adapted their names, while often keeping a Hebrew one. That's why it was Golda in countries where it would be understood, Zlata in other places, Aranka in others, Oro in others...

greenfire

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 5:39 pm

my kid has a yiddish name and a hebrew combo ... self made cause that was just what happened ... so find what you like ... they say it's nevuah ...

Zus

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 9:20 am

My parents wanted to name me after my great-grandmother so they gave me Gita as a middle name - after my fathers grandma Bashe Gittl. They thought that Gittl was too old fashioned so they modernized it to Gita.

sunnybrook

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 9:43 am

Some of the "modern" names mentioned are equivalent to Yiddish
EG Atara is Kreindel
Raizel can be Shoshana [which can becomeShani] or Vered or Vardit
Hinda is Ayala
Bluma is Pirchiya
Bella, Baila & also Sheina & Shaindel is Yaffa
Golda is Zahava or even Pazit {but not many in frum circles]
Aidel is Adina
Faigie is Tzippora
Taube & Toby are Yona or Yonit
Even Matilda is something which I found surprising but dont remember
etc etc
Have fun

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 21 2007, 8:14 am

funny Zus, because actually Gitta existed before Gittel (the pet form)!
same for Ayala, Atara, Shoshana, Adina...

Yona on girl is relatively modern (100ish yrs). Matilda is also a bit new (400 years?), and now granddaughters of Matildas are called Mazal(tov), which was also used before Matilda came up. Smile

amother

Sat, Jan 05 2008, 4:55 pm

amother wrote:

Chani wrote:

Yael

the one & only!no nicer name in the world!

100%! :)

amother

Sat, Jan 05 2008, 4:59 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

amother wrote:

Can you quote a source for this minhag?

It's not a Lubavitch minhag. It was the minhag of nearly all European Ashkenazic Jews. The Hebrew name was called the shem kodesh and the Yiddish name (usually some kind of equivalent) was called the shem chol. There were many typical pairs; Shlomo Zalman, Dov Baer, Yitzchok Eisik, Yom Tov Lipmann, etc.

Ruchel

Sun, Jan 06 2008, 6:37 am

Exactly. It's not to honour the language (?), it's because
- you don't want non jews using Hebrew
- you want non jews understanding your name

Bear in mind that many of the Yiddish names were also used by the non jews, or borrowed from them!

Apparently starting in the 1300's, "The gradual infiltration of Renaissance thinking into Jewish culture and thought and the promise of integration into Western European society expressed itself in the choice of secular names as Jewish given names. Some European names borrowed were: Adolph, Geronim, Gimpel, Goetz, Gumpel, Gumpert, Heinrich, Hirsch, Kusel, Victorin; Alsguta, Blumchen, Blume, Clara, Dobrisch, Feige, Frommet, Hinda, Nesha, Nussel, Reyna, Rica, Taube, Treine."

Later they became so common that they got totally integrated and considered as Jewish - many people ignore they used to be (or still are) used by the non Jews. Maybe in 500 years some English names will be accepted, especially on women.

But even then, this was no new thing: "As previously pointed out, during the High Middle Ages (1000-1492), the use of German, Christian, and Western European secular names became so widespread that the rabbis decreed in the 12th century that every Jewish boy must be given a purely Jewish (Hebrew) name at his circumcision. Thus, it became customary to give two names: Shem HaKodesh, the sacred name for being called to the Tora and for religious documents, and a Kinui, a non-sacred name for family, civil, and business purposes. ".

"Ashkenazi Jews (German, Alsatian, Austrian, Polish, Russian), many of whom had only secular names, developed the following paths to associate Hebrew names with their secular names, in order to satisfy the rabbinic decree".

"Since females did not need sacred names for being called to the Tora, many never did have Hebrew names, but only a vernacular name."

"The given names adopted by Jews during this turbulent period reflected the mixture of regions in which they lived and from which they fled. Some German names adopted by Jews during the High Middle Ages: Achselrod, Ansel, Bere, Eberlein, Edel, Falk, Feischl, Gottleib, Gumprecht, Hirz, Lebe, Mendel, Schmolke, Susskind, Susmann, Vives, Wolf; Gnena, Golde, Guta, Liebel, Maita, Minna, Perla, Rechel, Reine.

Some other European names adopted (from Spain, France, Italy, Bohemia, etc.): Bendit, Benes, Benet, Bertrand, Bonami, Faywel, Fissel, Herkules, Issac, Janus, Josef, Kalonymus, Kopel, Martin, Motell, Phobus, Vital, Vivanti; Bela, Blanca, Bruna, Czierna, Dobrisch, Dolza, Drazna, Estella, Flora, Genonna, Jenny, Muriel, Prive, Regina, Selda, Slava, Sprinza, Zlatka."

http://www.jewishgen.org/datab.....u.htm

It is absolutely not an Ashkenazic only thing. It is almost everywhere.