My ds wants a different kippa

PinkFridge

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 5:01 pm

I think you're getting some solid support and advice here. I'm really impressed with some of the posts. All this said, I have a few questions for you:
- Are you olim, or are your children born into this?
- Do you have anyone IRL you can bounce things off of? I hate to say this, I'm big into "ureh b'tuv Yerushalayim" and some people reading this will roll their eyes or worse, but the fact is that there is a certain level of conformity you have to be prepared to accept and deal with, and if you're going to go outside the box - and if your kid needs it, you need to do it - you need hadracha in how to do it. Just my two cents. Hatzlacha!

proudmother1

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 7:19 pm

I agree that you are getting some good advice here.

It seems that your son values fitting in, and that is the reason that he wants a different kippah.

So why would you worry that he would wear it to school? Wouldn't he want to fit in with the boys in school as well?

What would happen if you bought it for him, and explained to him that he doesn't have to choose one or the other as a permanent solution? He would likely wear it only with the football guys. And then he would feel that it was his choice, not his parents imposition.

I believe that it is very important to make Yiddishkeit sweet and very doable for our kids. If he struggles with something that has no basis in halacha, let him have his way. Try not to be emotional about it with him, as he will sense it.

You should discuss this with your husband beforehand and present him with a united front.

Dina_B613

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 7:30 pm

If your DH wants your son to think that Yiddishkeit is superficial and all about what's on the outside (socks vs. no socks, tights vs. no tights, shtreimel vs. black hat) then he should keep it up! Please keep in mind that your son is interested in wearing a kippa. Maybe he's not going to grow up to be a "learner," but you (and your dh) have to ask yourselves: what's wrong with, say, not learning all day - didn't most of our ancestors do this, after all? And what's wrong with having a knit kippah?

But, ask him what he would think if he read this:

"My oldest child is ds 12yrs old. He had a hard time with the rebbes in his elementary dati leumi school and although he is still in a dati leumi school where they wear kippot srugim, he keeps asking for a black velvet kippa instead. He plays football with some boys in our neighborhood and they wear these and he wants to fit in. He is not very interested in any secular subjects like math, science, or politics and I'm worried he's just on a downward slope.

Do I let him wear a different kippa to that which the rest of our family wear? I fear the other boys will follow.. or am I being silly. Im new to this stage so im a bit clueless. Not sure how much control we have over them and what they do. We are in Israel so your kippa makes a statement."

amother

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 7:40 pm

A version of this has circled around.
I am posting to give you a framework to compare. I'm sure that you can draw a parallel from this idea, and you will get a good laugh in the process.

Funny Letter From Son To Dad

A father passing by his son’s bedroom was astonished to see that his bed was nicely made and everything was picked up.

Then he saw an envelope, propped up prominently on the pillow that was addressed to ‘Dad.’

With the worst premonition he opened the envelope with trembling hands and read the letter.

Dear Dad:

It is with great regret and sorrow that I’m writing you. I had to elope with my new girlfriend because I wanted to avoid a scene with Mom and you. I have been finding real passion with Stacy and she is so nice.

But I knew you would not approve of her because of all her piercings, tattoos, tight motorcycle clothes and the fact that she is much older than I am.

But it’s not only the passion…Dad she’s pregnant.

Stacy said that we will be very happy. She owns a trailer in the woods and has a stack of firewood for the whole winter. We share a dream of having many more children.

Stacy has opened my eyes to the fact that marijuana doesn’t really hurt anyone.. We’ll be growing it for ourselves and trading it with the other people that live nearby for cocaine and ecstasy.

In the meantime we will pray that science will find a cure for AIDS so Stacy can get better.

She deserves it.

Don’t worry Dad. I’m 15 and I know how to take care of myself. Someday I’m sure that we will be back to visit so that you can get to know your grandchildren.

Love,
Your Son Cody,

P.S.. Dad, none of the above is true. I’m over at Tommy’s house. I just wanted to remind you that there are worse things in life than the report card that’s in my center desk drawer.

I love you.
Call me when it’s safe to come home.[color=darkred] [/color]

Shuly

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 7:49 pm

The posters who are saying that a kippah is just a kippah are technically correct. I come from a family of assorted head-coverings and no one cares less. However, in Israel the head-covering (hat, kippah, wig, mitpachat, snood) that you wear identifies where you stand politically and religiously.

For example, my friend's husband grew up DL and became more right wing. But even though after his marriage, he was learning in kollel in a chareidi yeshiva, he would never wear a black hat. You know why? He said he could not do it to his parents! He said if he wore a black hat his parents would be devastated because that would mean he is anti the army and their whole way of life!

Your son may understand this and he may not. Either way, he is trying to find his identity now and you have to help and support him in the correct way.

I don't think this means you should just allow your son to wear the kippah. It means that you have to get advice from a chinuch expert who deals with raising chutznik kids in chareidi Israeli society about how to discuss the topic with your son.
Try speaking to Rav Noach Orloweck or his wife or call Kav L'Noar at 02 622 3039.
Hatzlacha!

PinkFridge

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 8:24 pm

Shuly wrote:

Just quoting this because it's not enough to just like it. Shuly, I think you really nailed it.
I think a lot of people don't understand the realities in E"Y.

PinkFridge

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 8:29 pm

greenfire wrote:

therein lies the problem in the shidduch world

Yes, it is a problem. But I know a lot of families, really straightforward, yeshivish families, some uberyeshivish, with one or two kids who don't fit the mold, and B"H they've done right by their kids by helping them find their place, and endorsing them for who they are, and it hasn't impacted their other children's shidduchim. So not everyone's like that.

proudmother1

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 9:02 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Just quoting this because it's not enough to just like it. Shuly, I think you really nailed it.
I think a lot of people don't understand the realities in E"Y.

Everyone knows their own realities. This is OP's specific concern about a kippah. But so many in different locations, and in different cultures, have the same situation over different specifics. Most of us can relate in a sense.

PinkFridge

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 9:08 pm

proudmother1 wrote:

Yes, we can relate as parents who want our children to grow up healthy and loving Yiddishkeit. But we have to understand that not everyone is dealing in the same parameters, and that the same approach might not work across the board.

ElTam

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 10:40 pm

Quote:

However, in Israel the head-covering (hat, kippah, wig, mitpachat, snood) that you wear identifies where you stand politically and religiously.

This is true in the U.S. as well. Absolutely.

OP,
1. Pick your battles.
2. Pick your battles.
3. Pick your battles.

A kid who isn't allowed to wear the head covering he wants may likely become the kid who wears no head covering at all. If he's going to be rejected for changing, why not go all the way? And if all there is to yiddishkeit is what's on your head (or if that's the most important), what's to respect.

Yes, I know how this is, but it's not worth battling over. It's not worth the damage it can do to your child.

(FTR, my husband is a kippah srugah,and DS, already at his young age, will only will velvet kippahs. Oy vey!)

DrMom

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 11:46 pm

amother wrote:

My oldest child is ds 12yrs old. He had a hard time with the rebbes in his elementary charedi school and although he is still in a talmud torah where they wear black velvet kippot, he keeps asking for a kippa sruga instead. He plays football with some boys in our neighbourhood and they wear these and he wants to fit in. He is not very interested in religion or learning torah and im afraid hes just on a downward slope.

Do I let him wear a different kippa to that which the rest of our family wear? I fear the other boys will follow.. or am I being silly. Im new to this stage so im abit clueless. Not sure how much control we have over them and what they do. We are in Israel so your kippa makes a statement.

Maybe this should be a larger concern that the fabric used to cover his head.

If I were brought up to believe that the fabric used to cover one's head = Torah, I wouldn't be so interested either.

IMO, you need to focus more on the big picture and not trivial externals.

amother

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:03 am

Agreeing very much that you need to go with your husband and speak to a chinuch expert, I think it's also very important to explore the following.

Has your husband ever shared his journey with your children? Has he told them what aspects of the chareidi lifestyle attracted him, while, hopefully, not mentioning any negative aspects of his upbringing (particularly if there are grandparents who live in that world)?

As someone who grew up MO Lite (I am not sure how much halacha my parents knew, and many areas were not emphasized in my school) to very yeshivish (long term kollel followed by chinuch) I could tell you about what turned me off in my community, but it would not be a condemnation of MO, but of the particular environment in which I was not happy and therefore went searching.

[In fact, I have recently discovered some very serious MO people (I listen to their shiurim) and once in a while I think about how I might have lived had I known. But I digress.]

The point here is that your husband had his reasons for moving as he did, which I am sure he felt strongly about, although he might not have articulated them. And this is likely making him more anxious about his son being attracted to what he left, even though your son could certainly end up a wonderful Yarei Shamayim with any type of kippah. So it would be extremely important to encourage your husband to express exactly how he's feeling with any person you consult, and make sure your husband will be able to deal with the child rationally- not emotionally - and in a way that helps the child become his best self.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 1:36 am

Shuly wrote:

this may be true 99 times out of 100. But there are times when it is not true. I have begun to see many many many israelis, not anglos, israeli, wearing the leather black kippa. Do you know why? Dafkva so that they are not associated with a kippa in connection with their religious and political affiliation.
We have a nephew, from a very charedi family. Lets just say, instead of telling the whole sad story, that that life was not for him. He is still at home (not past high school age yet) and he has stopped wearing the specific kippa and does not wear black and white anymore. The parents were beyond upset. But you know what? They knew to pick and choose their battles and he is still a practicing jew. Just not exactly the way they do or wanted for him to. They chose very wisely.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 1:58 am

Unfortunately, we all know that there are plenty of schools who will kick your child out if the mom's sheitel is too long or the stocking seams are not right, or if the dad wears a colored shirt. If your child is seen playing ball in the street while wearing "the wrong kind of kippa" there could be problems.

If this will become a problem, you have to ask some serious questions, like do I have other kids who will be affected by this decision? Should I change schools? Should I change communities? Should I insist that he conform for the sake of his education?

I agree with the above posters who advise that you should sit down with some rabbis and maybe the principal of the school and talk things out before you make any decisions.

If you want a specific point of view, try posting this in the "Charedi" forums, it might be helpful.

mandksima

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 2:45 am

I just don't understand how a parent can enforce/insist/demand that their child wear a certain kippah in a practical sense. Do you block the door? Do you say they won't be allowed to live at home if they change? Do you take away privileges? I'm trying to picture the ramifications of the enforcement vs. the embarrassment or whatever is the OP's real issue with the kipah change.

Sometimes my dd will wear items of clothes I don't approve of/wouldn't wear myself but I also pick my battles and tell her this is between her and Hashem. Once she went out to a neighbor in a state of partial undress and I was shocked she had the chutzpah to do that. When she came back I asked her if they said anything to her and she said they looked at her and she answered them that this was between her and G-d. I'm glad she internalized what I said and it makes her feel like it is her decisions that may have consequences. It is healthier for her in the long run even though it bothers me a bit now that she doesn't see the beauty and benefits in tsnius dress. I do live in a very accepting environment now but I know what the charedi Israeli world is like and I still say to pick your battles if you want a child with a good relationship with you and Judaism.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 2:47 am

mandksima wrote:

exactly!

Barbara

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 10:14 am

While I understand that the type of kippa a boy wears has political implications in Israel, let me ask a different question to those who believe that wearing a crocheted kippa could result in a kid being asked to leave school. Do schools really make such fine distinctions? Would they really say, "well, Yossi is wearing a big black velvet kippa while he plays football (American football? or soccer?), so that's fine." Or would they say, "Yossi shouldn't be playing football with those boys, no matter what is or is not on his head."