Spinoff: feeling more attractive in shaitel vs. hair

amother

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:02 am

A few things came to mind while reading the original thread.

1) Tznius is to women like shmiras einayim is to men, not like learning Torah is to men.

2) Everyone get all up in arms whenever the discussion is about tznius is because it has been talked about and preached ad naseaum.

3) When there is a tragedy, it is time to do introspection for each and every person to decide on their own (or they can go to a madrich and ask for personal advice) what they should work on. It is very easy for a person to stand up at a podium and decide where everyone is lacking without even having heard as much as two words from members of the audience.

4) Kedusha is extremely important but it is JUST AS IMPORTANT for men as it is for women. It is blanket assur lehalacha for a man to think about a woman, ever, and for him to take a second glance. When he walks in the street he is supposed to look down at the floor, according to halacha.
4a) Where are all the asifas on shmiras einayim? There was one once ever and it was all in yiddish so half the people didn't understand what was going on and all it discussed was p0rn and not about how to conduct yourself in the street.
4b) If men followed their halachot with tznius, it would be okay for women to simply follow our halachot. Instead, since men are not following their halachot, we have to pick up the slack by taking on chumras.
4c) Therefore, me thinks that a lot of this obsession with tznius is an attempt to furthermore control women in the RW community.

5) We do not know the reason for covering hair. The source is unclear but it has something to do with kaballah. This is why some women will wear bikinis with a hair covering and others will wear long skirts and high necks and not cover their hair. It is because there is a difference between hair erva and skin erva.

6) People are trying to understand why shaitels are appropriate. I think they're appropriate for the same reasons that nude tights are appropriate. In the secular world, nude tights are considered dressier, like what you would wear to make your legs look nicer by a wedding.

7) If your hair looks ugly when you take off your shaitel, buy a dry shampoo and mousse/hair spray (I recommend finesse mousse with conditioner). Both will freshen up your hair tremendously.

---going anonymous so I'm not virtually shot.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:07 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

1) Tznius is to women like shmiras einayim is to men, not like learning Torah is to men.

how is tzniut like shmirat einayim?

Quote:

4c) Therefore, me thinks that a lot of this obsession with tznius is an attempt to furthermore control women in the RW community.

agreed.

Quote:

5) We do not know the reason for covering hair. The source is unclear but it has something to do with kaballah. This is why some women will wear bikinis with a hair covering and others will wear long skirts and high necks and not cover their hair. It is because there is a difference between hair erva and skin erva.

Hair covering is not because of something to do with kabbala. If that were the case so many more women would NOT be covering their hair. It is because it was decreed (yes, by men) that when a woman is married, her hair becomes like her nakedness and it must be covered. Thats it.

amother

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:34 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

1) Tznius is to women like shmiras einayim is to men, not like learning Torah is to men.

how is tzniut like shmirat einayim?

Quote:

4c) Therefore, me thinks that a lot of this obsession with tznius is an attempt to furthermore control women in the RW community.

agreed.

Quote:

Tznius is like shmiras einayim because they are both protecting the same thing, kedusha.

The reason elbows, knees are untznius have to do with practicality. Hair is different. Something changes to a woman's hair when she gets married. It's not a physical change but a spiritual change and the source is in kaballah.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:37 am

amother wrote:

All females were at one stage supposed to have their hair covered, not just married women. I have to find the source for that, but it is the case. So I still dont buy the kabala thing. I never learned that and have only heard that here in this site.

amother

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:49 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I think covering hair comes from a source in the Torah that the isha sota has her hair uncovered, hence, it was [b]covered before.

I'm sure there are kabbalistic reasons, but IIRC, R' Falk (Oz vihadar livusha) said that a married woman should cover her hair b/c married women are in extra need of refinement. In the past, even non-Jewish married women covered there hair. It was considered the respectable thing for a married person to do.

This makes sense as it is assur daareisa for her to be w/ any man other than her husband, as for a single girl, other than the nidda problem, it is not daareisa.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 4:08 am

It's not just about what other people see, it's what the woman herself physically feels. It is impossible not to feel something being on your head.

So, you understand yourself to be on deck, in uniform, like a man in a suit jacket.

It's a badge.

We feel it up there, and it speaks to us, subliminally. We ACT different as a result, subtly. We act married.

And we look good, which is nice too.

But this looking good is accompanied by acting unavailable, and married. So, pretty as we are, we are not treated by men as available.

As for women who used to be married but aren't now, I suppose they do whatever they want, or what local custom is.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 4:18 am

amother wrote:

I think covering hair comes from a source in the Torah that the isha sota has her hair uncovered, hence, it was covered before.

I'm sure there are kabbalistic reasons,[b] but IIRC, R' Falk (Oz vihadar livusha) said that a married woman should cover her hair b/c married women are in extra need of refinement. In the past, even non-Jewish married women covered there hair. It was considered the respectable thing for a married person to do.

This makes sense as it is assur daareisa for her to be w/ any man other than her husband, as for a single girl, other than the nidda problem, it is not daareisa.

Seriously? In need of extra refinement? Im sorry but that is most definitely NOT why we are covering our hair.

happysmile1

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 8:36 am

I highly recommend reading "The Unique Princess" by Rebbetzin Tehilla Abramov, for anyone who is interested in actually learning the emes about why we cover our hair. (I just saw that it's actually on sale now- if you buy it you receive a Secret of Jewish Femininity for free!) It's one of the only books out there that that really explains the mitzvah of kisui rosh and it has tons of endorsements from big Rabbaim including Rav Elyashiv.

Here's a quote from the book, "The obligation to cover one's hair appears in the Torah portion of Naso. this portion deals with matters pertaining to the ishah sotah....In order to ascertain whether the woman was unfaithful to her husband, she is given water in which the Name of G-d was erased. In order to avoid erasing the Name, various actions are taken to first to try and break the woman's haughty, brazen spirit. As a last resort, the Kohein takes her in front of the Sanctuary, removes her head covering and makes her hair wild. From this, we learn that up until that moment, her hair was covered (Ibn Ezra, Bamidbar 5:18) and that exposed hair is considered a humiliation for a married woman (Rashi, Kesubas 2). Exposing her hair places the woman in a state of unparalleled humiliation and shame."

Then in another chapter it states, "The halachic authorities who permit wearing a wig do so on condition that the look of the wig testifies to the fact that its wearer is covering her hair and not walking around bare-headed, like a single girl. In addition the wig must adhere to defined guidelines of modesty."

We are supposed to look like we are wearing a wig. the wig is supposed to look a head covering, not a gorgeous hairstyle otherwise it completely defeats the purpose of covering our hair.

Here's one more quote from Rabbi Forcheimer's book on tznius- the well known Peninim book, "Chazal have given the hair of the married woman the status of ervah. This means that the hair, as is the case of any other part of the female body that is labeled ervah, can cause a man who sees it to feel attracted to her."

That is what ervah means!

amother

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 8:42 am

happysmile1 wrote:

Thank you! That's pretty much what I thought.
I have a sort of off-topic question. I went to a college campus in Israel, was dressed modestly and was wearing a sheital. My sheital has nice hair, but anyone who knows what a sheital looks like would know that I was wearing one.

My questions is does the average secular Israeli know that some religious women wear wigs? If I have to go back in the future, would it be better for me to wear an obvious covering? I just prefer the wig b/c I don't know how to tie those pretty wrap-around tichels, so I usually wear a bandanna and I don't think it looks especially put together and I have to make a good impression.

happysmile1

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 8:53 am

When I quoted the Vilna Goan about tznius being the primary mitzvah for women just like Torah learning is the primary mitzvah for men- it means that the most important mitzvah for a woman is tznius. Not that Shabbos, chesed, etc...are not incredibly important, but that if a woman keeps everything but tznius she is missing a vital part of her tikun. This is why it's spoken about so much by Rabbaim and Gedolim. No one is trying to control us, they are trying to guide us. That's why there is a Torah and Gedolim and Rabbaim to teach it to us

Our emahos were primarily known for their incredible modesty. Sarah stayed in the tent when men came, this is what we are supposed to emulate (and I don't mean that we have to sit in our houses all day, we just have to be sensitive to how men were created, and yes they have to guard their eyes)

These statements naturally cause a back lash because if a woman is not working on modesty she feels guilty and lashes out in defense, "are you saying that all the chesed I do doesn't matter?!?" or "It's more important how I am inside not on the outside.." or "why am I responsible for men's issues..."

the reality is that the outside does matter- it affects men around us and it affects how we are inside too. I think we have to start thinking about what Hashem wants, not what we want. I would love to wear a beautiful long sheitel and wear really fashionable clothing and spiked heels, but I know (from the words of the Gedolim) that this is not how G-d wants us to look. We are not supposed to be imitating not Jewish styles and fashions.

I know that I'm going to get slammed now!! (but anyone who is truly open to the truth will agree with this!)

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 9:01 am

happysmile1 wrote:

What I bolded is really laughable. This is YOUR truth. It is not every frum woman's truth. Not at all.
ou said "if a woman is not working on modesty she feels guilty and lashes out in defense, " again, not true all of the time. There are frum women who are not actively working on their tzniut. I and many mny women I know, are in a wonderful place in their modesty and have nothing to work on. Seriously.

And lastly MEN HAVE TO BE BIG BOYS AND LEARN HOW TO WLK ON THE STREET WITHOUT GETTING TURNED ON BY A LONG WIG!!! Seriously!

June

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 9:08 am

amother wrote:

7) If your hair looks ugly when you take off your shaitel, buy a dry shampoo and mousse/hair spray (I recommend finesse mousse with conditioner). Both will freshen up your hair tremendously.

not commenting on the tznius debate here, and maybe I should start a spin-off, but can you please elaborate on this?

prior to marriage, my hair was wavy and gorgeous straight out of the shower - it dried beautifully and naturally. I didn't have to use any product ever.

now my hair is stuck all day in a bun under my tichel, so the top is all flat. I have no clue how to use hair products, but I want to like how I look when I take off my snood at night. I have a high, square hairline, so I feel like I look really ugly with my hair pressed flat on my head. is there a product to keep the volume in my hair? or would simply getting bangs help with that?

greenfire

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 10:31 am

wow ~ this is still going on ... & now with a 2nd thread to join

happysmile1:

coming on imamother as a newbie & preaching is NOT appreciated - it appears that you have an agenda - since thus far that's all you are talking about

you should go to a podium with like-minded women & give your stance of how women should be ugly in order to maintain tznua ~ it might prove to be a wonderful shiur to those who feel responsible for the terrorizing deaths of fellow jews in israel & around the world

I'll be glad to come & bring my hair cutting elements - including shears to bald your heads & v@ginas - since all hair appears to be a matter of contention [now I understand all the fuss about brazillians]

luppamom

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 10:50 am

greenfire wrote:

Out of curiosity, for how long is a poster considered a newby? Not that I have anything that controversial to say other than commenting on unappreciated hugs Smile

or maybe I do, but then I am just another amother. (Happysimile1, that seems to be the popular route to take on here until you're a platinum member like Greenie.)

greenfire

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 11:03 am

luppamom wrote:

Out of curiosity, for how long is a poster considered a newby? Not that I have anything that controversial to say other than commenting on unappreciated hugs Smile

or maybe I do, but then I am just another amother. (Happysimile1, that seems to be the popular route to take on here until you're a platinum member like Greenie.)

it's the agenda - if you're having normal conversations it would be more acceptable - even if I can't fathom her diatribe of women needing to be less than stellar in their looks so as not to attract bestiality in men -

any poster needs to give a basic gist of whom she is before she starts preaching - it's a friend first [kill us later Shooting Arrow

] sort of discussion

greenfire

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 11:16 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Wasn't the hair of the isha sotah simply unravelled, rather than uncovered? What is the Hebrew word used in that pasuk?
Frankly, it seems to me very strange that a whole universal halacha insisting all women cover their hair is drawn from this story (a story that in general, I find very demeaning and disempowering to women).

that story is also abusive & controlling ... embarrassing someone is tantamount to killing them - how could that be something to teach the world a lesson ... also behind every cheating woman there is a cheating man - go figure Confused