Spinoff: feeling more attractive in shaitel vs. hair

black sheep

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 2:54 pm

black sheep wrote:

happysmile, I really think you mean well. it sounds like you are inspired by chumros related to tznius, and you want to spread the warm feeling.

but the problem is that this is not a shared mitzvah. different communities have different tznius norms, and even within those norms there are different ways of dressing. there is no one right or wrong way to dress tzanua. as highlighted by this thread, there are even differences among great gedolim as far as if a hat or a sheitel is preferable.

another problem is that preaching tznius is in and of itself vulgar. it becomes an obsession over women's bodies (and hair.) telling other women how to dress is untznius.

and then of course there comes the disturbing jump to blaming tragedies on women's bodies. and hair. and it is especially disturbing when women are crying over a tragedy, to come to them and say, "shouldn't this be a lesson to be more modest..." talk about kicking someone when they are down!!!

I feel very bad for women who were raised to believe that covering themselves is the greatest thing they can do, and that not being covered "properly" can lead to tragedies. happysmile, you have been misled, and I truly feel very bad for you.

Heyaaa wrote:

This is exactly why discussions of tznius 'rub a raw nerve' in me. People love talking about relations but some people are too frum to talk about it openly but they're just as obsessed with the topic so they talk about tznius instead.

so true!!!

imaima

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:08 pm

luppamom wrote:

Not going to address the feminist concerns, but IIRC, Sota never happened IRL. There were a lot of factors that went into it. Everyone woman who did zenus was not automatically a sota. As for the word usage (got kinda interested in the challenge to find it). The pasuk says ופרע את ראש האשה is what I saw when I opened my Chumash. Here's the translation from http://www.chabad.org/library/......htm.
Then the kohen shall stand the woman up before the Lord and expose the [hair on the] head of the woman; he shall place into her hands the remembrance meal offering, which is a meal offering of jealousies, while the bitter curse bearing waters are in the kohen's hand.

AFAIK The woman has never been proven guilty (I.e. has never died) during this procedure, but the procedure itself did happen.
For those who say it is demeaning - it probably is, but the condition for this is that the woman was in a secluded place with a man, about whom her husband has warned her not to be alone with, in front of two kosher witnesses. So for this conditions to take place, there must be a really specific, dire situation! (What would make a man talk about such things in front of kosher witnesses??)

amother

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:26 pm

happysmile1 wrote:

Don't feel bad for me! I am like my name says "happy"!!

I'm happy to be Jewish!

I'm happy to be working on tznius and hair covering!

I'm happy to have a kesher with Rabbis and Rebbetzins who can give me proper guidance on tznius, as opposed to following my own feelings and views and opinions!

I'm even happy to be bashed because it shows the words that I have posted here have hit a raw nerve with women!

I am sad that women have not been given enough info about tznius and head coverings and there is such ignorance about why we cover our hair or why we are supposed to be tznius.

I do think it's important to talk with respect to all people even while being bashed. I understand people have different opinions, as long as people are following what their Rav and Rebbetzin tell them than they are doing the right thing.
The same way everyone here feels they have a right to voice whatever is on their mind, I have a right to post words from Rabbaim and Gedolim that I have heard. None of this is my own opinion.

You could choose to be receptive or you could choose to ignore it! You could also choose to twist around my words in whichever way you like! (which is what's happening here- I never said that women shouldn't be beautiful. I just said that if you study books on tznius you will learn that we are supposed to be most beautiful in our homes for our husbands, not in the streets. But I'm sure it will get twisted again!)

I am not telling anyone what to do- I am giving over info. You don't have to read my posts, you are choosing too. Yes, I am fired up about tznius! It seems pretty important.

I have a lot to personally work on myself. I am in no way judging anyone- just giving over info to anyone who is interested. If you're not interested you could just skip this conversation!

I am happy you are happy and all fired up about yiddishkeit. That is great! But, I want you to stay happy. I am also newish (correct me if any of my info. is wrong, please). I don't know what you heard about this site, but I want to debrief you that this is a semi-anonymous blog that mostly consists of people's problems, a lot of them are problems that they wouldn't share on a park bench! It can be very helpful at times as it is hard to ask advice on very private, sensitive topics in an anonymous way. Unfortunately, most people here are not exuding happiness. Not saying that there isn't some lightness and fun on the site, there definitely is, but the heaviness of klal yisroel's problems and people's personal tzaros is heard more. There have been inspirational happenings, but they are the minority of threads. If you can't handle heaviness and people who have staunchly different opinions and are also not afraid to speak up, stay off of this site.
(Not saying this b/c I don't like what you wrote. I just want to "protect" you and make sure you are aware of the context.)

I

luppamom

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:28 pm

imaima wrote:

Right and the woman got a huge bracha (for children) if falsely accused.

luppamom

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:40 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Great. Then it's not demeaning at all, is it?
(Not trying to be sarcastic, just find this whole story appalling, and the fact that we extrapolate from one miserable woman's strange predicament halacha for all women is even more mystifying in my eyes).

I don't really understand why this is. I was just elaborating on what PP wrote. She (and he Smile

) did s/t wrong. They shouldn't have put themselves in a situation which led to sota even if she didn't do an actual aveira (yechud wasn't decreed then). I never understood why she gets a blessing.

Orchid

Thu, Dec 25 2014, 9:54 am

imaima wrote:

Agreed it was rare for ALL conditions to be met and therefore it may never have even happened (like ben sorer umoreh). The point is the punishment for the same exact sin committed by 2 people is different on the books - even if never carried out.