Preschool director washed girls mouth with soap!!

anon

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 6:33 pm

ABUSE = an incident which is truly damaging, even if it only occurs one time. Examples: serious physical violence (no, washing out with soap doesn't fall into that category) and s-xual abuse.

abuse = an overused term to describe a variety of behaviors that are inappropriate and/or wrong. If it occurs repeatedly, it may then begin to have long-term effects.

In other words, if this child receives good chinuch, love, and warmth at home, and goes on to have positive experiences with most (not all, but most) of her teachers in the years to follow, I seriously doubt that this incident will have any affect on her.

GAMZu

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 7:18 pm

mumoo wrote:

southernbubby wrote:

I think that children today are more confident because they are less frightened of authority figures. However, I would not go as far as to say that the child that OP posted about was damaged for life.

but how would you know for sure, why take chances by punishing in a cruel, forceful manner?
Adults have to be in control of themselves. This punishment was given in anger, not in a loving way.
And while parents may be excused from perfect behavior once in a great while because of the stresses of parenthood, a teacher does not enjoy that same liberty with other people's children.

Let's not forget, this child was 4 years old!

That's not enough lifetime to realize that some teachers have issues that are not her fault. Or that forcing a cruel punishment on a hysterically crying little girl is not the correct way to behave.

That little girl did NOT learn to behave better. She learned that bigger, stronger people are always right and teachers can do cruel hateful things. And quite possibly that her parents approve, as they sent her to that school and did not object to the cruelty.

Best post I read in a long time.
I guess then, anon, since this is only abuse and not ABUSE then it's fine? Let's cover it up and forget the whole thing?

Quote:

if this child receives good chinuch, love, and warmth at home, and goes on to have positive experiences with most (not all, but most) of her teachers in the years to follow, I seriously doubt that this incident will have any affect on her.

Who are you kidding? This child will receive love and warmth and be blessed with wonderful teachers if she stays in that school?!?! That incident was only caught by mistake. I'm sure the director will make sure to be more discreet in the future. Exploding anger

We are not talking about THIS incident. It's too late. The damage is done. We are now talking about preventing these atrocities from happening to this girl and all the other kids in that school.

Quote:

chances are that this kid is going to remember well ... different people have different emotional responses ...

You said it! My son would have nightmares for weeks, would act up terribly because of the emotional trauma and start biting his brother in order to release his stress. It's happened with much more benign incidents than THIS.
I myself still remember an assistant we had while in nursery. I was 3 or 4. She was the nicest lady. Everyone loved her. But when she was absent, her sub was a monster. I hated her. She was so mean. She screamed at any child who made in his/her pants, etc, but no real abuse. Once I overheard the teacher saying that the nice assistant won't come tomorrow and we'll have the monster instead. I begged my mother to stay home, and she let me. The following day I came to school... and the terror substitute was there! I was panic-stricken. I asked a classmate what happened and she said that yesterday we had the regular, nice assistant as usual. Apparently I mixed up the info. So don't tell me it doesn't affect!

bashinda

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 7:30 pm

here's what the online webster's dictionary says:

1. Cruel or inhumane treatment.

2. A rude expression intended to offend or hurt; "when a student made a stupid mistake he spared them no abuse"; "they yelled insults at the visiting team".

3. Improper or excessive use.

which seems much more inclusive than yours. I go by this definition.

Also this abuse includes verbal abuse which is just if not more damaging than physical abuse. As I said before in this case what was more worrisome the emotional abuse. Do we have to repeat ourselves here? This is major trauma to a young child who has a limited understanding on what she did wrong to begin with. We have no clue what damage was done in those short minutes. Also who's to say there hasn't been ch"v more incidents she's had with the hanhala which are equally bad? Who knows how much damage has done to this child or other children in that school? It's horrible.

anon

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 7:56 pm

GAMZu wrote:

[I guess then, anon, since this is only abuse and not ABUSE then it's fine? Let's cover it up and forget the whole thing?

Yeah sure, that's what I said. That it's fine to do it, that we should cover it up. Uh, not! I'm pretty sure I specified that I would be furious if someone did that to my child and was horrified when I read about this.

I was partly just commenting on the fact that people were acting like this one time occurrence would scar a child for life. I personally think it's a bit of an exaggeration. This observation did not necessarily have any direct connection to what should be done about the situation.

Quote:

We are not talking about THIS incident. It's too late. The damage is done. We are now talking about preventing these atrocities from happening to this girl and all the other kids in that school.

This is true.

Quote:

chances are that this kid is going to remember well ... different people have different emotional responses ...

Quote:

Since when does "remember" equal "emotionally damaged"? If humans were that weak, we'd all be messed up. Which one of us HASN'T experienced some sort of maltreatment in our lives?[/quote][/quote]

mumoo

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 8:34 pm

Cinderella wrote:
I don't think that you would want someone who did this, C"V, to your baby to get away with it! It comes down to protecting our children!!!!!!!!

and the parents don't even have a chance to comfort her, or explain how wrong the teacher was -because they might not even know about it.

GAMZu

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:06 pm

I'd much rather prevent all maltreatment of children, even if the emotional damage isn't permanent. Green said already, in time of confusion in one's life, they might remember the abuse coming from a frum source... and choose to run far, far from the ppl who gave such treatment.

mumoo

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:21 pm

GAMZu wrote:

Best post I read in a long time.

aw, thanks Smile

anon

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:25 pm

GAMZu wrote:

I'd much rather prevent all maltreatment of children, even if the emotional damage isn't permanent.

I'm not sure why you think anyone here wouldn't want to prevent such maltreatment. It's only natural to want to protect children who are helpless to protect themselves.

I still think that the "damage" spoken about is blown out of proportion.

mumoo

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:33 pm

anon wrote:

I still think that the "damage" spoken about is blown out of proportion.

how do you know?

GAMZu

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 10:19 pm

Double post...

Last edited by GAMZu on Tue, Jun 12 2007, 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

GAMZu

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 10:20 pm

The damage that was done is not all that is at stake. It's the damage that is not YET done.
It's not like this is an isolated incident/accident that will never occur again and the school will be a safe haven full of loving hanhala from now on.

anon

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 11:11 pm

mumoo wrote:

anon wrote:

I still think that the "damage" spoken about is blown out of proportion.

how do you know?

I obviously don't have proof. But I think that if it were the case, then we'd all be permanently damaged. Do you know of any adult who doesn't remember a time when they were treated abusively? I would imagine that only those who were treated abusively on many occasions would say that they feel permanently affected.

Last edited by anon on Tue, Jun 12 2007, 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

Cinderella

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 11:12 pm

anon wrote:

I still think that the "damage" spoken about is blown out of proportion.

Deep long sigh here Confused

anon

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 11:16 pm

GAMZu wrote:

I agree.

If we're discussing now what should be done, the OP seemed to have gone very much out of her way to do something. You spoke of "covering things up" but she reported the incident to her agency and made numerous attempts to find out the girls name. The only thing left to do (aside from some suggestions which I thought were ridiculous) would be to call social services.That would be a huge responsibility on her part, so I don't have an opinion as to whether or not she should do it.

Mrs. XYZ

Tue, Jun 12 2007, 11:35 pm

Took this off a child abuse website:

Quote:

Is Physical Punishment the Same As Physical Abuse?
Physical abuse is an injury resulting from physical aggression. Physical punishment is the use of physical force with the intent of inflicting bodily pain, but not injury, for the purpose of correction or control. As you can see, physical punishment can easily get out of control and become physical abuse.

And about the school...

Quote:

It's not like this is an isolated incident/accident that will never occur again and the school will be a safe haven full of loving hanhala from now on.

If this would be an ongoing 'activity' in the school, people would know about it and not send their kids there- dont you think?

amother

Wed, Jun 13 2007, 1:35 pm

no because many times things are done in private and not sec. do kids tell thier mother. same reason a teacher who melests kids can stay in school for YEARS

GAMZu

Wed, Jun 13 2007, 4:38 pm

<<If>>

No, not at all. How would the parents know?

GAMZu

Wed, Jun 13 2007, 4:54 pm

My quote above got snipped off for some reason. Here it is, quoting Mrs. XYZ:

quote: If this would be an ongoing 'activity' in the school, people would know about it and not send their kids there- dont you think?