Chinuch and Summer Vacation

amother

Wed, Jun 22 2005, 12:44 am

Speaking of how expensive camps are, I have a real problem. My son is supposed to go to a "yeshivas kayitz". However there are just two weeks left till camp, and I cannot register him because they want the money for the whole summer up front, and it is over $2000. There is another yeshivas kayitz which would involve also a plane ticket, don't know if they would be more reasonable. Plus we are sending other children to camp, but at least we were able to register one with a deposit. don't know where the rest of the money will come from.

It seems that my dh is avoiding the topic. For weeks I cannot get him to sit down to discuss all this with me, so we can plan where to send him/them, and register them. I am afraid my kids will sit home this summer because we can't come up with the money.

It is also so embarrassing to plead your case with the young schnooks who are sometimes put in charge of these administrative responsibilities. They lack the maturity of dealing in a mentshlich, understanding way with parents who are much older than them, but need to come on to them.

Motek

Wed, Jun 22 2005, 5:22 pm

amother wrote:

My son is supposed to go to a "yeshivas kayitz". However there are just two weeks left till camp, and I cannot register him because they want the money for the whole summer up front, and it is over $2000.

my sympathies!

I think the ten week vacation is awful. But if we have to have to it, then yeshivos should have a summer camp so that the boys go from yeshiva in the city to the yeshiva in camp. Same people handing tuition for both.

Many yeshivos do, in fact, have summer camps that the boys are required to attend. Much better this way than trying to get your kid(s) in, somewhere, never mind fly them somewhere which I think is utterly outrageous.

TzenaRena

Fri, Jun 24 2005, 10:19 am

[quote="Motek"]

amother wrote:

I think the ten week vacation is awful. But if we have to have to it, then yeshivos should have a summer camp so that the boys go from yeshiva in the city to the yeshiva in camp. Same people handing tuition for both.

Many yeshivos do, in fact, have summer camps that the boys are required to attend. Much better this way than trying to get your kid(s) in, somewhere, never mind fly them somewhere which I think is utterly outrageous.

Motek, since so many of us can't stand the fact that the yeshivos shut down for so long ( and the kids lose so much momentum of their learning even when they go to a nice camp) Why are they still doing that? I know the Rebbe doesn't hold of this long vacation! And I heard that some mosdos in BP have gotten together and declared that they are extending Yeshiva , and staying open for the entire month of Tzmmuz!

This is what's done in Eretz Yisrael. There are three weeks of "bein hazmanim" after Tisha B'Av till Rosh Chodesh Elul.

daisy

Fri, Jun 24 2005, 11:14 am

I know someone who sends their son to Mosdos elementary school and they carry on their limudei kodesh into July and start back sometime in August. Don't know the exact dates, but it's a much shorter summer vacation.
When I was growing up, we had mandatory limudei kodesh summer school for the first 6 weeks of the summer. One summer a bunch of us wanted to go to camp in July, and they somehow arranged for the shiur counselor in camp to teach our group a separate curriculum of what we would have missed in school!

Last edited by daisy on Wed, Aug 10 2005, 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Motek

Sun, Jun 26 2005, 3:57 pm

SaraYehudis wrote:

since so many of us can't stand the fact that the yeshivos shut down for so long ( and the kids lose so much momentum of their learning even when they go to a nice camp) Why are they still doing that?

It might have something to do with the fact that too many parents would refuse to remain in the city when they have bought summer homes in the country. I think the opportunity was missed a few decades ago, when the vast majority of people RENTED bungalows and few owned homes.

The system in Eretz Yisrael as far as school until Tisha B'Av is great (and one can even question why three weeks of vacation is necessary).

The Rebbe actually insists that MORE learning be done in the summer than during the year. Does this happen? Absolutely not. Confused

gryp

Sun, Jun 26 2005, 5:44 pm

Quote:

( and the kids lose so much momentum of their learning even when they go to a nice camp)

I dont know what age kids youre talking about here, but the kids lose momentum anyway since theyre so used to summer vacation approaching. starting Pesach spring fever hits and the kids just cant sit anymore.
if the norm was to have longer school and less vacation, and they were used to that, then perhaps they wouldnt get spring fever, but when its warm outside its so hard to be stuck inside.
besides, part of the reason it takes so long to regain momentum is because theyre getting used to a new teacher. that takes a long time, a new teaching style to get used to, etc.
so im really not sure how much momentum they lose because of the long vacation, and how much they would lose anyway.

TzenaRena

Mon, Jun 27 2005, 3:13 pm

RG wrote:

Quote:

( and the kids lose so much momentum of their learning even when they go to a nice camp)

I dont know what age kids youre talking about here, but the kids lose momentum anyway since theyre so used to summer vacation approaching. starting Pesach spring fever hits and the kids just cant sit anymore.
besides, part of the reason it takes so long to regain momentum is because theyre getting used to a new teacher. that takes a long time, a new teaching style to get used to, etc.
so im really not sure how much momentum they lose because of the long vacation, and how much they would lose anyway.

Yes, its true that it takes a month to break into school in September, usually coinciding with Tishrei and Yomim Tovim, so it's basically an adjustment to back to school life and getting to know your teachers, but the learning doesn't get serious till after Tishrei. That just goes to show that the problem is even bigger!

I think the right time to start school is Rosh Chodesh Elul. Then, Yomim Tovim would be a break in the routine, but that routine would be established already.without having to compete with the hectic Tishrei atmosphere.As it is now, for the younger ones, I have to run around getting their school supplies and seforim at the same time as I'm preparing for YomTov and having guests.

Starting a month to three weeks earlier, more children would be organized at the beginning of the year, having their supplies, with the parents having the time to supervise that they are doing their homework, and getting on good schedules like being on time to shacharis minyan, and going to sleep early enough to do that.

The way it is right now, kids are learning seriously only about seven months out of the year, from Cheshvan till the beginning of Nissan, with Iyar being already less intense. Sivan, tammuz, Av, Elul, Tishrei being off months... with some learning but not systematic. How can we hope to produce Torah scholars - Lomdim - this way?

gryp

Mon, Jun 27 2005, 3:32 pm

Quote:

but the learning doesn't get serious till after Tishrei

.
again, it depends which age youre talking about, im thinking elementary where before and during Tishrei there is so much to learn before the Yomim Tovim. this is also why the routine is not broken into until cheshvan. they dont even start with most subjects until after the Yomim Tovim.

Quote:

I think the right time to start school is Rosh Chodesh Elul.

have you checked the school calendar for next year yet? Labor Day is Rosh Chodesh and school here usually starts the day after Labor Day.
and usually it starts around Tes-Vav, which is only two weeks later. I dont think two weeks would make much of a difference in the routine, but maybe it would if everyone got used to that.

Quote:

How can we hope to produce Torah scholars - Lomdim - this way?

with the attitudes parents have towards school these days, I think we have compleltely different hopes now... Confused

Quote:

The kids might not need it, but the teachers/rebbeim sure do! I can't imagine teaching 12 months a year with no break. I would burn out after a year and a half for sure.

I completely agree. the teachers definitely need a break. I dont think it has to be 10 weeks, because guess what the teachers end up doing during those 10 weeks to support their families? they go look for teaching jobs in camps, tutoring, etc. but if you look around at teachers who have been teaching for many years already, they do get burned out even in the middle of the school year. its just not possible for a person to be so involved in so many kids' lives and put their whole selves into it without getting burned out.

Motek

Mon, Jun 27 2005, 3:43 pm

Here are some of the things that the Lubavitcher Rebbe said about vacations, how to spend the summer, and camp:

Over the years, the Rebbe put in a lot of effort to do away with vacations for mosdos chinuch, particularly yeshivos. The Rebbe maintained that vacation is only for secular studies and optional studies, but not from Torah learning and the fulfillment of mitzvos ch'v.

In the very first years of his leadership, the Rebbe sent letters to the principals of yeshivos in which he demanded that they work with the talmidim during the summer months too, through a day camp or sleepaway camp, or some other way - the main thing being no vacation from Torah learning.

The Rebbe even said one time that freeing talmidim during the summer is the opposite of frumkeit, and is simply unprecedented vildkeit. It is as though you say to a talmid that since he worked so hard learning Torah, he deserves a vacation to rest up from it all, r'. Is that rest?!

In the sicha of 12 Tammuz 5745, the Rebbe said, "There are those who think that when the summer comes ... it is vacation time from Yiddishkeit, for they free him from learning Torah and doing mitzvos. Heaven protect us from such an idea! He becomes a "servant of servants" to his yetzer hara and goyishkeit!"

It should be the opposite, said the Rebbe, they should take a vacation from secular studies and increase in Torah learning.

To conclude, the Rebbe said that the only solution is to establish summer camps al taharas ha'kodesh, day camps, sleepaway camps etc. which are available specifically at the time when one does not have to learn secular studies, and the children can spend an entire day in an atmosphere of Torah and Yiddishkeit, without any outside influence.

Once, on Shavuos 5737, the Rebbe described the difference between earlier generations and ours:

It used to be .. that children learned in cheder or yeshiva all day. Bein Ha'zemanim was no more than twice a year, before Pesach and before Rosh HaShana .. now, especially in America, things are different. Since the children are "tired" from the few hours they learn, there's the "weekend" (Fri. through Sun.) ... and when summer arrives, from the 4th of July, you have to rest in camp.

Naturally, when they return, they cannot sit down right away and learn, since they just came back and haven't yet recovered ... and from such behavior they want to raise an 'upright generation that will be blessed'!?

momtomany

Mon, Jun 27 2005, 4:00 pm

Since what you are saying is that there should be no break from torah learning, what is wrong with going to camp that includes learning? why should kids have to sit indoors all summer long learning? I cant think of a more miserable child than the one who doesnt enjoy learning to begin with and is required to stay in school not only all year long but even when its warm out.
when else does a child have a chance to develop any other talents besides for learning? how would a child even know if they are good at woodworking or sports if they dont get these activities every summer in camp? and dont try to tell me that school would include this b/c they wouldnt. only a camp would.
learning isnt the only channel for most kids. if school was required year round it would benefit only the real learners and be detrimental to the not such great learners. these not such great learners dont get much chance to shine during classes, but at camp, finally they can have a chance to shine at something. please dont take this away from those kids.

Motek

Mon, Jun 27 2005, 6:14 pm

I think your questions go way beyond how children should spend the summer and get into what are the goals of chinuch.

some questions are:

What do we do with a child who doesn't enjoy learning?

Should we be encouraging our children to develop talents? Do we have a different answer for boys? girls?

What other areas in Jewish life, besides Torah learning, can or should children be exposed to?

Do we want our children, boys in particular, to feel as good about their abilities at swimming or baseball or singing, as about their learning?

If all children are not cut out to learn (if that's true), then how can they grow up to be bnei Torah? Or do we say that not all children can be bnei Torah?

etc. etc.
anybody can start a new thread on any of these topics!

Motek

Thu, Jul 07 2005, 6:29 pm

more from the Lubavitcher Rebbe

from a letter of 5 Av 5715 (1955): In general, my view is known that there is no time now for vacations at all. On the contrary, and for a number of reasons. If only I had the strength, I would have abolished it in the past, and all the more so in the present and future.

from a letter of 24 Av 5716 (Lik. Sichos, vol. 8, p. 367): Additionally, for those who have a certain type of personality, it is specifically during the time, when they do not have to obey the yeshiva rules of discipline and set hours for learning, that they can demonstrate that by their own good will and without outside orders, they add to the number [of hours of learning] many times over ..

Sicha, parshas Devarim 5746 (1986): The concept of vacation in yeshiva, cheder, or Talmud Torah is something undesirable ... Since the Torah is "our life and the length of our days," an interruption in life is simply impossible. If only this vacation would be abolished..

from a letter of 4 Iyar 5716: Somebody writes that since it is bein ha'zemanim, the number of people attending the Chassidus shiur has diminished. This is most surprising, for it should be just the opposite. When it's bein ha'zemanim, they have more free time, and they can have more of these shiurim ..