"Why not you?" - what do you think of this?

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Motek

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 3:37 pm

Someone related the following story:

An American rosh yeshiva (who shall remain nameless for the purposes of this thread) had many pictures of gedolim hanging on the wall when he was younger. He also had an empty picture frame hanging there. When asked what it was for, he said it was in order to remind him of the question: Why Not You? I.e. why shouldn't he do what it takes to be included as one of the gedolim pictures.

The person who told me this story was tremendously impressed by this and said they repeat it constantly to their grandchildren. Why not you???

I found the story troubling. What do you think?

Last edited by Motek on Sun, Jun 17 2007, 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mrs. XYZ

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 3:45 pm

Firstly, Please correct the error in the topic to WHY not WHO. Wink

Why is it troubling? Aren't we always supposed to think "masai yagiu maasei lemaasei avosai"?
Maybe the way it was done is interesting, cause it sounds like he wants his picture up on the wall?

healthymama

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 3:52 pm

It is troubling b/c it suggests that the only reason he wanted to do all these good things was for the honor accorded to gedolim. Pirkei avos has something about one who chases honor...

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 8:36 pm

yeah the whole aspiring to be a gadol thing doesn't sit well with me either.

where did this idea come from that our tachlis in life should be to be a "gadol"?

MommyLuv

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 8:50 pm

kinda bizarre. The whole egotism thing about it, about aspiring to be a great gadol with a portrait on the wall sounds phony and haughty.
So...did his dream come true? Rolling Eyes

Esther23

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 9:45 pm

I don't see why it's troubling. Isn't that how we're supposed to be? Always looking up towards gedolim and trying to emulate their ways. I don't think he meant that he actually wants the honor and be in a framed picture, it's just the fact that he should work on himself and strive to become better and better with the gedolim as his goal.

chocolate moose

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 9:52 pm

Well, what about our boys who want to be rabbonim and roshei yeshivos? Is that gayvedikeh? What about the men who want to be doctors, surgeons, professors? lehavil.

I think they must think they can really make a difference. I think that's nice.

ILOVELIFE

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 9:55 pm

I'm ready for the sparks but I'll say it: In the litvish world the aspiration is to be "a godol" , a rosh yeshiva, etc. That's the long-term goal in life.

In the good ol' chassidishe world (and I'll admit that many chassidishe yeshivos have picked up litvishe ideas) the long term goal was to a simple erliche oived Hashem. Most of our Rebbe's never aspired to be Rebbes..... they aspired to serve Hashem b'tmimus.

Mimisinger

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 10:04 pm

There's a yeshiva in Maryland that has the same thing...It has a wall of Rosh yeshivas, etc. and then a mirror with the words, are you next? I think it's a nice thing to try and aspire to. And, for those thinking that its because of the kavod afforded to gedolim, that's odd....I think that it's about trying to aspire to have their middos, learnedness, etc....

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 10:23 pm

well I wasn't one of those mentioning the kavod but I'll admit I was thinking it. however what I said was

Quote:

where did this idea come from that our tachlis in life should be to be a "gadol"?

to have aspire to follow in their ways is one thing, but thats not what it sounded like from motek's post.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 10:29 pm

Mimisinger wrote:

sounds interesting but as a chossid, I guess its strange to me. You wouldn't see such a thing on a wall with pictures of Rabbeim

we are encouraged to behave a certain way, to try and better ourselves, to follow a certain derech etc but no lubavitch child is ever told they should aim to be a Rebbe one day.

The Rebbe himself at first turned away the nesiyus.
The thing about the Rabbeim is that they are there for their chassidim. They "belong" to the chassidim. They aren't a rebbe for themselves but for the people.

greenfire

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 12:28 am

EstiS wrote:

yeah the whole aspiring to be a gadol thing doesn't sit well with me either.

where did this idea come from that our tachlis in life should be to be a "gadol"?

from where - from the fact that bocurim are told to learn in yeshiva and not take care of their wives and children ... in case they might be a gadol batorah ...

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 9:47 am

Esther23 wrote:

Exactly what I was thinking, Esther.

I think it's beautiful to encourage a child that they can be the very best, and of course they need to work at it. The purpose is not at all to be in a framed picture, but to be on a spiritual level amongst those gedolim.

Also the gemorra discusses how to encourage a child to learn. When they are little you tell them to learn so they will have candies etc; when older they get money and so on until you tell them they should learn so that people will call them 'rav' and they will be honoured. Of course the ultimate step is that a person learns lishma (for its own sake and not for any reward).

Quote:

we are encouraged to behave a certain way, to try and better ourselves, to follow a certain derech etc but no lubavitch child is ever told they should aim to be a Rebbe one day.

Why not? Why shouldn't a parent encourage their child to get to the top in what they see as the ultimate goal in life? So do Lub encourage their children to be talmidei chachamim, roshei yeshivos, shluchim etc - whatever you think is the greatest a person should aspire to?

Mevater

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 9:55 am

Perhaps s/o with a better memory for where the concept of "Kinas Sofrim" comes from, can explain. I understand it to mean that we are encouraged to be envious of Talmidei Chachomim and always try to emulate them and become like them or ideally one of them.

Atali

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 10:01 am

Quote:

Of course they do. On the other hand, Lubavitchers have an emphasis on humility and bitul. That is why they teach their kids that the ideal is to be shluchim (representatives of the Rebbe and chassidus, not necessarily gedolim in their own right). This is why great chossidim usually shunned publicity and were not called by so many titles. Many of them were called Reb "first name", even if they were outstanding talmidei chochomim and ovdei Hashem who if they were in other circles would be refered to as "haGaon haRav ________ shlita", etc., and certainly did not aspire to have their picture on the wall.

I understand Shalhevet's point about how one should first encourage a child to learn Torah in a way of "shelo lishma" and how this would show the child how much they value limud haTorah. However, I recall learning that the reason that "Acher", Elisha ben Avuya, became an apikorus is because his father wanted him to learn Torah so that he would receive the kavod that the talmidei cochomim received. Since his motives for wanting his son to learn Torah weren't lishma, it affected his son.

So the question is, did the parents really want the child to learn lishma and were using this as a way to motivate him, or were they more like the parents of Acher?

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 8:49 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Why not?

why not encourage them to be a rebbe?
because that's not what we believe should be their goal in life

Quote:

Why shouldn't a parent encourage their child to get to the top in what they see as the ultimate goal in life?

yeah sure, but as I said to be a Rebbe is not a goal
A Rebbe is a someone who is on a certain level not because they aspired to become a Rebbe, but for far loftier reasons

Quote:

So do Lub encourage their children to be talmidei chachamim, roshei yeshivos, shluchim etc - whatever you think is the greatest a person should aspire to?

the greatest thing a person should aspire to be is to fulfill their potential and do their utmost in their avoida and serving Hashem, in all ways and refining themselves.

yes lub kids are encouraged to be shluchim, but as a means to helping to spread yidishkeit and bringing about Hashem's will.
to be roshei yeshivos? I don't know, I suppose if a kid has the potential to be one then his parent will probably encourage him, because obviously for that person, it seems to be his tachlis in life.
talmidei chachomim? obviously torah learning is encouraged, but its encouraged in order to learn torah not in order to become a "title"
Was it Reb Zushe that said ....?
when I go up to shamayim Hashem won't ask me Reb zushe why weren't you like Moshe Rabeinu but will ask me Reb Zushe why weren't you like Reb Zushe.

Last edited by Lechatchila Ariber on Sun, Jul 15 2007, 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total

chanab

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 9:11 pm

A lubavitch child is encouraged to be the best chosid he can be, but not a Rebbe.

Mimisinger

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 9:23 pm

There's also a difference between A Rebbe and THE Rebbe. A huge difference between a Rosh Yeshiva and THE Rebbe.

One I think is more predetermined...

red sea

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 9:39 pm

I only read the first bunch of posts but I think those who are offended are misinterpreting the story. The person did it for himself first of all and I think he was holding himself accountable that it is possible to reach great heights and wanted to acheive in mitzvos for the right reasons - not honor, now that he happened to end up after the fact a public figure instead of a private person who reached great heights is not the point of it.

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