girls and tznius | Imamother

micki

Mon, Oct 11 2004, 6:48 pm

question- at what age would your daughter stop going into the mens side in shul?

and at what age would you stop bathing your sons, and your husbands stop bathing your daughters? or would you even stop?
and would you let your teenage daughters change their brothers diapers?

how old is too tznius?

mommy2

Mon, Oct 11 2004, 9:02 pm

I always diapered my brothers diapers, I dont think theres an issue with that. As for giving baths I think when the child takes baths alone that is when the parents stop. And for going in the men's, I'm not really sure, I don't have kids old enuf, and I was the youngest girl.

Motek

Tue, Oct 12 2004, 10:12 am

Quote:

at what age would your daughter stop going into the men's side in shul?

I don't think there's a precise age when it's no longer allowed, but one thing to keep in mind is that if she is going to the men's section, it's impt. that she be dressed in a way that would allow the men to daven in front of her!

Quote:

and at what age would you stop bathing your sons, and your husbands stop bathing your daughters?

ditto what mommy2 said

Quote:

and would you let your teenage daughters change their brothers diapers?

I think it's fine and a way for them to help out at home.

a different question would be about allowing boys, even little ones, to watch as you change their sister's diaper
there are those who are very particular not to allow this (and unlike teen daughters changing boys diapers which serves a purpose, little boys watching as you change girls diapers doesn't serve any purpose)

Quote:

how old is too tznius?

?
please explain

Nechama

Wed, Oct 20 2004, 11:45 pm

"Halichos Bas Yisroel" has answers to most of these questions. It is not Lubavitch though.
Motek, why is it not good to train a boy to be a good father and change diapers?
Or should a father not change his daughter's diaper?
Halachically a girl needs to be tznius in front of her father at age 11 1/2. That is the halacha.

I imagine the same applies in regard to being in the men's section, (halachically). However, the ages that are generally acceptable to make this kind of restriction (going into the men's section etc) is at age 9.
Multiples of three seem to be the age when various growth spurts in the area of tznius are encouraged.
At nine my boys stop wearing shorts and jeans.
Halachically (not talking minhag here) a girl should wear skirts at age three, skirts to her knees at age 6, and I forget the age nine thing.

I asked a shaila about a girl being touched by a man after age three (if she stays at a friend's house and falls asleep on the couch can the father move her to a bed, was the actual shaila) and the Rav (Lubavitch) said not to be overcareful and to make judgements based on common sense. He mentioned bochurim holding girls on thier laps or playing with them and said that with a 'normal' bochur this is not an issue, but be observant and make sure all play is within the range of natural and normal.
This is regarding a non relative.

Motek

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 1:30 pm

Quote:

why is it not good to train a boy to be a good father and change diapers?

Of course they should be trained to be good fathers; it's specifically the diaper-changing that's the question here. This is not a halacha, at least not as far as I know, but there are those who strongly suggest not exposing boys to erva, whether in diaper changing or at the pool, with mommy in a bathing suit.

Why? because everything you see affects you, and seeing these things are particularly not advantageous for boys. As for married men changing their daughters' diapers, they are just not in the same category as unmarried boys.

it should be mentioned, while we're on the topic, that according to psak Chabad, girls from the age of 3 need to dress as tzniusdikly as us shock

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Oct 27 2004, 12:55 pm

I asked our Rav about our daughter. He said past age 3:

-when going to shul, she has to be dressed znius
-otherwise, she can still ware pants.
(a friend told me that with our school system, minhagim are somewhat irrelevant, as the schools will inform you of their dress codes, which have to be followed)
----------------
changing diapers: my husband asked if he's allowed to change our daughter's diapers, as man are not supposed to look. He was told: "So don't look, just change it!" LOL
---------------
As far as boys changing girls, I'm not sure if a baby's body is considered erva - we undress a boy in shul for bris....
I think (I shall call my Rav to find out), that just looking's proobably not good, regardless of gender. But I see nothing wrong with helping.

hadasa

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 3:41 pm

Concerning boys' seeing their baby sister at diaper changing: I understand the reasons this may seem inappropriate. Bedieved, however, after I heard my 13-year-old nephew (who's the youngest in his family and very innocent), asking how you can tell the difference between a boy and a girl, I'm glad my boys did see their baby sister, and accept it as natural, so I don't have to make a big deal of it and tell them at thirteen. (His mother had to tell him before he went to Yeshivah, so the other kids wouldn't laugh at his naivete.) I don't think I would let them actually change her, though.

stem

Tue, Apr 05 2005, 1:14 pm

What about bathing the children together? At what age is it inappropriate to bathe a brother and a sister at the same time?

My thought is that when they start to notice that they are different - or at least verbalize it, ask questions - I would start to separate their bath times. I don't see any harm in allowing them to see each other while they are still very young, but if they start getting too curious, I think it's better to talk about it privately, then to have a "show and tell" if you know what I mean...
My son is one, and my daughter is three, and although she is very perceptive, she never actually said anything that would indicate that she is curious about the difference, though I have a feeling it might happen soon...

About dress: I am not making any loud announcements about not wearing pants or shorts anymore, but I am slowly fazing out that part of her wardrobe.

merpk

Tue, May 24 2005, 2:02 pm

There came a point in time when our eldest wasn't interested in having company in the bath anyway ... about four/five-ish, when he wanted more room for his toys and didn't want his siblings taking what he was playing with LOL

so there went the group baths with him ...

Finding the same now that the next one is b'H five and she gets annoyed when I want the little ones in the tub, too ... they mess with her toys ...

stem wrote:

About dress: I am not making any loud announcements about not wearing pants or shorts anymore, but I am slowly fazing out that part of her wardrobe.

With my older DD (the above-mentioned 5yo) I did it that way, phasing out the pants at around 3-ish, but with this one (currently b'H 1yo) am going to start that around 2-ish. It became an occasional issue with the first one, and am thinking if we start that earlier, maybe it won't be this time.

Though DD#1's issues with it didn't last more than, say, three or four months ... that is, wanting to wear pants and shorts ... when summer came that year she also gave us grief occasionally about sleeves, wanting to wear her jumpers without shirts underneath. Thank G!d that problem didn't last too long, either LOL

yehudis

Tue, May 24 2005, 3:09 pm

Interesting -- my girls have the opposite "problem" -- they refuse to wear pants. My older one doesn't any more (since she was three), but my younger one is not even two, and she insists on wearing dresses. I'd prefer if she wore pants -- looks safer on the playground.