Whooping Cough Is Running Around

goodmorning

Wed, Oct 21 2015, 9:15 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I don't know which vaccine was used in the Thailand study, but the second one is from 1994 where the wP one was used. Although, I am not sure if that makes a difference, as the study in Israel was for wP as well, showing that "The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine
wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a
vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms
(3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may
serve as reservoirs for silent infection and
become potential transmitters to unprotected
infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for
pertussis is protective only against clinical
disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore,
even young, recently vaccinated children may
serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of
infection" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....4.pdf

Again, possibly. From the same study:

Quote:

Whether a child who is serologically or PCR positive for pertussis and is clinically symptomatic is a potential transmitter of infection has not been established.

I'm not arguing that it's not a possibility; I'm arguing with the definiteness with which you stated that, which does not seem to be backed up by the literature.

I wouldn't argue with the following rewrite of your sentence: "research suggests that pertussis may possibly be spread by someone vaccinated." Smile

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 2:41 pm

You just cite that there are now several kinds of whooping cough. Charming.

We never had this before the anti-vax movement, started by one aging starlet who wanted to be interesting after her prime years.

That the situation is now complicated only shows how charmingly you can mess up. It's a bacterium. Highly contagious. It signed no contract to retire. It's dynamic and living, and now has become a moving target. It was pretty well disappeared and gone, before the anti-vax movement.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 6:20 pm

Dolly, where are you getting your information from? Pertussis was never eradicated. It's a cyclical disease, always coming and going. In addition, they changed the formulation of the vaccine for safety reasons, but the outcome was that efficacy seems to be less. And to add more to the picture, immunity wanes over time, which is why boosters are being promoted now. This has nothing to do with "aging starlets" (no clue what you are talking about there).

This is straight from the CDC FAQ page http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/faqs.html
Q: Why are reported cases of pertussis increasing?

A: Since the early 1980s, there has been an overall trend of an increase in reported pertussis cases. Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years. But for the past few decades, peaks got higher and overall case counts went up. There are several reasons that help explain why we're seeing more cases as of late. These include: increased awareness, improved diagnostic tests, better reporting, more circulation of the bacteria, and waning immunity. The bacteria that cause pertussis are also always changing at a genetic level. Research is underway to determine if any of the recent changes may be related to the increase in disease.

When it comes to waning immunity, it seems that the acellular pertussis vaccines (DTaP and Tdap) we use now may not protect for as long as the whole cell vaccine (DTP) we used to use. Throughout the 1990s, the United States switched from using DTP to using DTaP for babies and children. Whole cell pertussis vaccines are associated with higher rates of minor and temporary side effects such as fever and pain and swelling at the injection site. Rare but serious neurologic adverse reactions, including chronic neurological problems, rarely occurred among children who had recently received whole cell vaccines. While studies have inconsistent results about whether the vaccine could cause chronic neurological problems, public concern in the United States and other countries led to a concerted effort to develop a vaccine with improved safety. Due to these concerns, along with the availability of a safe and effective acellular vaccine, the United States switched to acellular pertussis vaccines (DTaP).

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 6:24 pm

goodmorning wrote:

CDC basically says herd immunity does not work for this. Which is why I posted to begin with.

Q: Doesn't herd immunity protect most people?

A: Herd immunity (or community immunity) is a situation in which, through vaccination or prior illness, a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease, making its spread from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those with chronic illnesses) are typically protected because the disease has little opportunity to spread within their community. Since pertussis spreads so easily, vaccine protection decreases over time, and acellular pertussis vaccines may not prevent colonization (carrying the bacteria in your body without getting sick) or spread of the bacteria, we can't rely on herd immunity to protect people from pertussis.

Vaccines are the most effective tool we have to provide protection against pertussis. It's important that everyone get their recommended pertussis vaccines to protect themselves.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 8:02 pm

I never heard of one case of any of these newly dangerous diseases when I was young, or older than young. Not one. This one has BECOME cyclical, NOW, maybe. I got to middle age without ever thinking about it, or any of them.

As for the aging starlet who started it all, that's Jenny McCartney. Some ideas just catch the public's fancy. I remember the hula hoop. It was just some tubing. And I spent the Sixties trying to have straight bangs like Marianne Faithful. That didn't work either. But my fancy, my fancy. It had caught my fancy. You cannot argue with someone's fancy. It is their truth.

What catches people's fancy isn't always reality based. You wouldn't have wanted to see me hula hooping with my straightened bangs. Now let's see you get over that mental image.

People are silly. Me too.

Oh. Safety concerns. That's always a judgment call. You are safer in one way and less safe in another.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 9:33 pm

That's because it didn't used to be a big deal in the media. You're falling for the hype. Whooping cough has been around, and has been making resurgences for decades, coming and going in waves. Measles never made the news until recently, not because it wasn't around, and not because it's all of a sudden dangerous when it didn't used to be, but because the media has chosen to make it a big deal whenever there is a case. It's become a war against parents who choose to not vaccinate like the current schedule, whether they are to blame or not. Jenny McCarthy has nothing to do with pertussis. Nothing. And I have yet to meet a single person who doesn't vaccinate because of her.

My only point in this thread is to stop blaming others for pertussis being around. The scientific community acknowledges the vaccine itself needs improvement and doesn't put blame on the few who don't vaccinate. So why are you? We can't ever make our kids safer if we don't focus on the root of the problem, and instead shift blame elsewhere. And in the meantime, for no good reason, it causes major machlokes and strife, ostracizing those who make different decision.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 9:56 pm

Jenny was the starter. The originator. That the people you know don't remember her doesn't matter. "Decades" isn't that long a time for me.

These diseases were super rare until the current nonsense. Of course there were a few cases, that is how it stayed alive, waiting for a niche to fill. Then the anti-vax movement came, and the disease had its opportunity.

We should take whatever vaccines we can get, on schedule, knowing that won't solve everything. It is much better than the alternative.

I am now worried about my oldish friends who go to Brooklyn for religious reasons. Some of their family people are cancer survivors, and none of them have had boosters.

Vaccinate, discriminate.

Do not befriend anybody who puts my friends in danger or your too-young-to-vaccinate infants.

No friendship for people who cause suffering to mine. That lady in the Jewish Press deserves our concern. She reminds me of me. She is no crazier than anybody else and she is suffering for nothing.

"Hype" indeed. Like at my age I am taken in by hype. I tried to tell you I have seen hype, before hype was in grade school, and I know hype. Jenny is the hype. Autism. All that. The origin of lies gets lost but the lie persists. It's hilarious that you don't even remember Jenny. That's funny. Her lies are now part of The Literature.

The scientific community is too busy doing its job to get into politicized tangles, and that's why they can't be bothered blaming the anti-vax movement. It's scary out there. Lots of clannish passion. They don't want trouble for their careers.

Once, a pocked, ravaged, face was the badge of being from a certain age, the age of Smallpox.

In time, maybe a hoarse, raspy, tuneless speaking voice will be the badge of being of this age, the age of Whooping Cough.

There is also two months of acute physical discomfort with this disease. Meaning, pain. If you are grown and healthy. What it does for infants I don't know.

Discriminate against unnecessary pain. This didn't have to happen.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 10:26 pm

Why ever do you think she was the originator?? You don't think she became "anti-vax" the same way other parents did? I do. I think most people who choose not to vaccinate do so after lots of research on their own. Does Jenny maintain up to date research? I doubt it. She is a poster child, perhaps, but plenty of people make individual decisions without her. I highly doubt the frum population holds her in such high esteem to base opinions on whatever she has said. Who ever said I forgot who she is? I know full well, unfortunately, who she is. I didn't realize she was considered an aging startlet 10 years ago or whenever she wrote her book. But I don't think she had as much impact as you think she did. I think there is a lot of other reasons people chose to not vaccinate, usually with more credibility than a Hollywood actress. There are Hollywood actors and actresses that have told people to vaccinate, and I don't assume the vaccinating population based their decisions on those statements, so why would I assume the non-vaccinating population based their decisions on one celebrity? Most people especially in the movement where one has to defend one's beliefs against the mainstream, need more educational background than a soundbite.

I see you will believe what you want to, despite the CDC saying otherwise, so there is no point in continuing this.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 12:38 pm

My memory is longer than yours. That is merely because my mother bore me in a different year than your mother bore you, and is no special virtue. But it does mean I consciously remember events when they were first current and real-time that you do not. I simply was there.

It seems to have been lost in the mist but Jenny McCartney was certainly the first to be famous as an anti-vaxxer, saying vaxing had caused autism in her son. That was a good while ago and has been thoroughly disproved. It is several Presidents ago. I suppose Wikipedia might mention it but I haven't got the stomach to look it up.

Jenny was the first.

Certainly the first to make such a view news, as she was a pretty blond woman and articulate. I am no expert on her, but I have the impression she may have taken her words back in recent years, and claimed she never said that.

Yes. The anti-vax thing traces to one aging starlet who was just plain wrong.

That vaccines aren't perfect, and they aren't, does not mean one should be anti-vaccine. Vaccines are wonderful. Get all you can, using your noggin about the condition of the person being vaccinated. Yes. Wait until the person doesn't have a cold and is in good weight and general condition. But don't dilly dally too long.

Any future meetings about this subject will take place in the home of the lady in the Jewish Press. She may have a few bacteria left in her, and there may be a few floating around her curtains and upholstery. Let's meet there and talk about it. I won't be attending.

Amarante

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 1:12 pm

FWIW, Dolly is correct that an idiot starlet spread the anti vac meshoggus to the masses.

It was based on a COMPLETELY DISCREDITED English study. I am writing in caps to emphasize that the original source study has absolutely no credibility and yet the evil that it spawned lives on to cause suffering and death.

And I am also old enough to remember a time when people died or became paralyzed or had other life long ill effects that now can be avoided through modern medicine including vaccines.

IMHO only someone who grew up in an age WITH vaccines would possibly consider not being vaccinated or not having their children vaccinated because they have no real experience with the disease. Not to mention that they are selfishly relying on the herd immunity.

My parents were so grateful to be able to spare their children the suffering they had gone through. Many of them had siblings who either died or had life long health problems because of childhood diseases which are now completely preventable.

amother

Gold

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 1:17 pm

Amarante wrote:

s.o I know didnt vax their kids forty years ago. they did it based on their own research on info. the family grew. many of their kids dont vax now. n;th do do with the lancet paper. these ppl are old enough to remember all the diseases and paralysis that u do. not all of hte masses is following an "anti-vac meshuggos"

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 2:55 pm

Forty years ago is your idea of a long time ago? It isn't. That was the Beatles. I danced to that and I was no child at the time. You should have seen my outfit.

Yeah. Your friends were the far-out-man people of my very own generation and I wish they hadn't got into this but some did. OTHER STUFF TOO. Oy. Talkin' 'bout my gennnneration. Yuk. We ruined the world. I am so ashamed.

So they are following their own family meshuggos. It's still meshuggos. Some of them OWE THEIR LIVES to the vaccinating done by others.

That's eroding now.

The diseases are BAAAACK.

Oh yes, there were always hippies and Beatniks; I remember. I didn't read Jack Kerouac. Blah blah. Before that, there was James Dean and Brigitte Bardot, the beauty. I don't know if she vaxxed her one son. And before that, Mae West. Her, no, I don't remember. She wasn't about being healthy. She was more honest in HER rebelliousness. She didn't pretend it was good for you.

Yes, there has always been a counter culture. Fine. Enjoy. Just don't kill people.

Yes, in the Sixties, rebellion got very healthy and pompous. Very eastern. Very anti-Western. The result was high-fiber bread, a good thing. But not this, please.

Forty years. Bleh. I was in high heels forty years ago, and they weren't my first pair.

amother

Tangerine

Sat, Oct 24 2015, 2:33 pm

My grandmother is in her 80s. She vaccinated her first son at aged two. She brought in a talking, walking child and left carrying him out after the vaccine. They told her he will get better but he didn't. I'm not trying to frighten anybody because vaccines have changes since then. But she never vaccinated again, neither did my mother, neither do I. She was as old as you, if not older and she remembers a time when people died from childhood illnesses. She also remembers that time where hygiene was pretty disastrous and where disease spread like wild fire. She believes the spread of the disease has more to do with hygiene and living conditions. So does my mother. So do I. Does that difference of opinion make us ignorant? Mass followers?
I think not.
I think we have the right to choose for a reason. My kids caught all the childhood illnesses: mumps, measles, pox etc. B"h they all turned out fine. I stand by my decision.
Thank you.

amother

Aubergine

Sat, Oct 24 2015, 2:56 pm

My husband, a completely normal and healthy child who grew up in a normal Westernised country, did not have the MMR as his mother refused, developed measles encephalomyelitis (brain measles) at age 6 and spent 6 months in a coma. Everyone thought he would die. There is no treatment.

1 out of 1000 children with measles gets this, you can't predict who. I wouldn't wish it on anyone - can you imagine being the mother sitting for months by the bedside of your baby who is in a coma, with ongoing uncontrolled seizures, expecting him to die?

BH he survived, with bad epilepsy which kept him in hospital for another 2 years. You can imagine his schooling suffered and he has some long term problems, including balance issues.

Most children are fine with these illnesses, but some, completely healthy ones, have horrific illnesses despite being well nourished. Sadly you can't predict who.

amother

Tangerine

Sat, Oct 24 2015, 6:42 pm

amother wrote:

Indeed. Also a risk as a side affect for the vaccine itself.

amother

Blue

Sat, Oct 24 2015, 8:06 pm

amother wrote:

Indeed. Also a risk as a side affect for the vaccine itself.

There was one confirmed case of measles encephalitis ever, and to get that from the vaccine you would need a very weakened immune system. To get it from the virus is much easier.

Of course hygiene and antibiotics have decreased infectious disease but so have vaccines: denying that is like saying the earth is flat. And guess what infectious diseases are on the rise again.

amother

Aubergine

Sat, Oct 24 2015, 9:12 pm

amother wrote:

Indeed. Also a risk as a side affect for the vaccine itself.

I might respect your answer if you either quoted the published data on the comparative risk of meningoencephalitis from measles v vaccine, or could write English properly.
As you have done neither, I assume you are poorly educated and unable to understand scientific papers and are just quoting your nearest scaremongering rag.

I hope you never suffer the way my mil did, believing her precious bechor was going to die for 6 months, waking up each morning for years not knowing if he made it through the night or had died of an epileptic attack despite being monitored 24/7.

Dolly Welsh

Sat, Oct 24 2015, 9:12 pm

Tangerine, yes, your grandmother's birth year was before mine. Her tragedy happened either right after the Second World War or in the mid 1950s.

I agree with your statement that medicine and production controls have advanced a lot since that time, which is sixty-five to seventy years ago, predating every machine in your house, and the manmade fibers in your closet.

There were no zip codes then, and no telephone area codes. A car cost $2,000 then, a house $15,000, and people made $3 or 4 thousand a year. On that salary, they had a non-working wife and several well fed children.

It was a while back.

I think I know what happened then. That was when mercury was used as a preservative. It isn't now, and hasn't been, for years. It didn't even cause problems in the proper tiny amounts when it WAS used. What happened to your unfortunate relative was that shot had way, way, way too much mercury in it. The swiftness of that disaster rules out disease. It happened in MINUTES. Diseases don't do that. If he was a mess the next day, one might suspect the disease.

That experience was so bad that she can be excused, and her children too. If YOUR FAMILY WERE THE ONLY ONES NOT VACCINATING, there would be no problems today.

It's the other people, not you, who have given us the Horrible Situation we have now.

5*Mom

Sun, Oct 25 2015, 8:14 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Dolly, are you suggesting that statistical records kept by government agencies charged with public health are unreliable and only *your memory* is an accurate record of rates of disease going back decades??

You asserted that pertussis was almost eradicated. According to government statistical records and the scientific community, it wasn't. You assert that non-vaxxers (of which I am not one, btw) are to blame for its "resurgence." According to the CDC, they are not. And also according to the CDC, pertussis is not likely to be *almost eradicated* due to the nature of pertussis itself and the limitations of the current vaccine.

Your repeated assertions about who is to blame for pertussis are incendiary and they are morally and factually wrong. If a certain poster here who need not be named is at one end of the spectrum when it comes to rational discussion of diseases and vaccines, you are at the very opposite end. Neither of you is rational, or properly informed.