Are non-tznius mothers a reason not to send my daughter the

amother

Khaki

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 3:00 pm

So where I live there aren't so many great choices of girls schools. The one that most closely matches our haskafah has a lot of mothers who don't dress totally znius, like 75%. I'm talking about women who define themselves as charedi but wear skirts above their knee and eye-catching super long sheitels. In your opinion does this matter if the school itself is the closest match to our haskafa? Will the way other girls' mothers dress effect my child?

amother

Blush

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 3:10 pm

amother wrote:

[quote]

These are the mothers of her friends, and kids don't want to be different than their friends and her friends will not be dressing tznius. If tnzius is not important to you then send there.

L K

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 3:28 pm

She may end up under huge peer pressure not to dress betzniyus. It doesn't help that they may be in uniforms. Proper minimum length may be considered "nerdy" etc.
And it may end up a huge point of contention between you and her, rather than a teaching moment.

seeker

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 5:08 pm

Personally I see a difference between flirty sheitels and short skirts. I have been around both "yeshivish" and "modern orthodox" and various in between areas/communities/schools. I notice that there are women coming from the "yeshivish" areas who dress in ways that are more, attractive is not the word I want to use here, maybe flirty? The short skirts and long sheitels are part of an overall look that I don't like, it seems to be more of an attitude than an outfit. On the other hand when I have been in MO areas most of the women are wearing short skirts or even just pants or leggings or whatever. Their hair may or may not be covered, sometimes partially, but almost never ostentatiously. The vast majority give off zero appearance of trying to attract attention or make a statement or anything like that, that's just the style of the community they're in. If a good quality school were available for me with a portion of the parent body like that, I would have no qualms at all.

Last edited by seeker on Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

MiracleMama

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 6:43 pm

For me I choose the school where my children are going to get the best education. My children have never been in a school where all the kids and all the parents dress the same as our family. It's never been an issue. They understand that everyone holds differently and in our family we dress a certain way. Hopefully we will continue to have no issues as they get older. But I can't see sending my children to a school I like less just because the moms are more tznius there.

Simple1

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 7:42 pm

If it was just a few who are different from you, or an even mix of types, I would be OK with that. But 75% different seems like a lot, and if tznius is important to you, it will likely be a struggle when your child runs into peer pressure in the older grades.

sped

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 8:25 pm

I know a family who did similarly, and had to change the school when her daughter was about 11-12 and she had to keep explaining why her daughter needed to wear long skirts and sleeves outside of school and her mother covered her hair always.
It is a hard call to make.

amother

Khaki

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:02 pm

seeker wrote:

Seeker, you hit the nail on the head. It's the attitude. And while I also would not call it attractive, to an impressionable child it might be. My young child may not notice, but in 5 years she will... Does anyone had experience with this type of thing with their daughter?

amother

Khaki

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:06 pm

sped wrote:

Sped, was it a school of mothers who considered themselves chareidi, or was it more modern women who "more modestly" wore short skirts?

amother

Crimson

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:08 pm

IMHO this will be problematic as your daughter matures.

If by "not znius" you meant uncovered hair, and your daughter emulated that, you (and the school) could explain that halachah requires covering, but that her friends' mothers weren't makpid. But with a problem of long sheitels and Chareidi s*xy clothes, if you explain that it is wrong you will likely be met with the objection that since all hair and skin is covered, it follows all the rules. Worse, the school would probably preach the same message, to not offend the mothers.

L K

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:12 pm

I would agree that it mattrrs why the mothers dress the way they do: because they hold it is permitted, or their background is less observant, or they're on the way to becoming drum overall, or because they flaunt their careless attitude towards tzniyus. If latter probably better to stay away.

amother

Green

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:19 pm

I beg to differ with those mothers who say the kid won't notice. Maybe my kids are different but my daughter already was noticing what her teachers and others were wearing in Grade 1. My son came home once from kindergarten and asked why I don't get a long shaitel like Morah X.
Kids are V.E.R.Y. perceptive. Don't underestimate them!

I would not send my kids to a school where 3/4 of the parent body does not dress with tznius - if the parents are satisfied with this level. As a kid I went to a dayschool with a lot of BT. Many mothers did not cover their hair or wore pants but the difference was that they were growing, and they respected tznius. When they came to shul or to school events they dressed more modestly. I think all of my friends mothers ended up putting on a shaitel by the time their kids married. I respect them for that and would send my kids to such a school.

anon to respect my kids' privacy

amother

Cobalt

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 2:23 am

Anon in case any of DD's classmate's moms are on here.

DD just went to a classmate's bas mitzvah. I didn't go, because friend's parents were not invited, so this is what DD told me.

The girl was not very frum, the event was a "dance party", and the other girls wore dresses with no sleeves or very short sleeves. DD, of course, went fully covered. DD said to me "The bas mitzvah girl's mom looked like a SLUT! She had a slit up so high I could almost her underwear, and her boobs were hanging out of her top. It was GROSS!"

I had thought that I had enrolled her in a very frum, but not quite Chassidish, school. I guess the standards are a lot different than I thought. So, yes, kids really DO notice these things. Next year I will choose her school much more carefully, and will most likely be sending her by bus to a different community. It will cost at least twice as much as as the local school, but I consider it an investment well spent.

Sadie

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 2:41 am

Another above your daughter's lashon hara is worse than the mother's dress. You need to teach her not to speak about people that way. Where did she learn the word slut?? She could have found a way to express her discomfort to you without saying a disgusting word like that.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 2:41 am

amother wrote:

The girl was not very frum, the event was a "dance party", and the other girls wore dresses with no sleeves or very short sleeves. DD, of course, went fully covered. DD said to me "The bas mitzvah girl's mom looked like a SLUT! She had a slit up so high I could almost her underwear, and her boobs were hanging out of her top. It was GROSS!"

.

Yes, it would bother me if all my dd's classmates came dressed to a bat mitzvah in skimpy mini-dresses.

HOWEVER, if my dd said that to me, I think I would be more appalled at the way she spoke than at what the mother wore.
What business does a 12 yr old girl have calling her friend's mother a slut? No matter what she wears...
Honestly, my girls are raised in a very, very open home, and they go to a DL school where some kids veer more to the secular than to the religious. They don't use the word 'slut' at all, certainly not to describe a friend's mother.

Now, that said, I agree with everyone who said that friends/peers make a big difference. I think they affect the typical social child more than the official school policy; more than the teachers. So I would avoid sending to a school if I were unhappy with 75% of the parent body.

Raisin

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 3:19 am

my daughters went to school with mostly not frum kids until they were 12 or 13 and I would be appalled if I heard them using words like boobs and slut.

In any case, like others have said, this will be more of an issue as your daughter gets older. Not such a problem for 5-10 year olds.

Dandelion1

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 3:42 am

amother wrote:

Anon in case any of DD's classmate's moms are on here.

DD just went to a classmate's bas mitzvah. I didn't go, because friend's parents were not invited, so this is what D I D told me.

The girl was not very frum, the event was a "dance party", and the other girls wore dresses with no sleeves or very short sleeves. DD, of course, went fully covered. DD said to me "The bas mitzvah girl's mom looked like a SLUT! She had a slit up so high I could almost her underwear, and her boobs were hanging out of her top. It was GROSS!"

I had thought that I had enrolled her in a very frum, but not quite Chassidish, school. I guess the standards are a lot different than I thought. So, yes, kids really DO notice these things. Next year I will choose her school much more carefully, and will most likely be sending her by bus to a different community. It will cost at least twice as much as as the local school, but I consider it an investment well spent.

I agree with the others.... That language is extremely problematic and reflects an issue deeper than the incidental exposure to different styles of dress.

Should I assume that this type of language and speech is common amongst her peer group? If so, then yes, a different environment may be a good start.

But I'm confused as to why you report these comments so casually....

bandcm

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 3:59 am

I thought the amother with the bas mitzva was bringing her daughter's mode of speech as a reason to change schools. Did I misunderstand?
It really is a horrific way for anybody to talk. If this is the language kids are hearing, I would change her school tomorrow.

amother

Cobalt

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 4:24 am

Yes, we were all completely appalled. I asked her where she got that language, and she says "All the girls here know the English swear words. They say the f word and sh, and call each other b, and lots of other stuff. This is supposedly a very good Dati/Torani school that stresses excellent middot. Rolling Eyes

I've been working on her to clean up her language, as well as teaching her not to judge people who are less observant than we are. The above posters are correct, when a kid hits 12 or 13, they have a very hard time sorting out right from wrong, and figuring out the way to behave properly. She never would have acted like this when she was 8 or 9.