What exactly was given at Sinai? (threads merged)

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 1:27 pm

amother wrote:

I had always believed so. However, I was speaking with a friend of mine who is quite frum and she informs me that the Torah we have today is not the same one we got on Har Sinai. She insisted that there were parts that were added later or parts that were lost/changed throughout the ages. I was dumbfounded, but I didn't have any proof to offer to defend my view.

Is the Torah that we have today the exact same one we got on Har Sinai? And if so, how can I prove it to her?

Thanx,

amother

Of course, the Torah we have today ( even Chumash ) is not the same as given on Har Sinai. Rabbis state that our sifrei Torah are not "medyyakim" - not exact, there are "yud" and "vov" added or omitted, and there is a known machlokes regarding aleph or ayin in "patzua daka".

TzenaRena

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 2:02 pm

Quote:

Of course, the Torah we have today ( even Chumash ) is not the same as given on Har Sinai.

what do you mean by of course?

Quote:

Rabbis state that our sifrei Torah are not "medyyakim" - not exact,

which Rabbis?

Quote:

there are "yud" and "vov" added or omitted,

which yud or vov?

Quote:

and there is a known machlokes regarding aleph or ayin in "patzua daka".

the fact that there is a machlokes about this one letter shows how exact the Torah is. There is an explanation according to Chassidus why there are two versions of petzuah dakah, and both are correct.

However,the Alter Rebbe instructed that it should be written with an alef, see Hayom Yom 7 Elul,a sefer Torah written by Ezra HaSofer, preserved in Prague has it with an alef. Also a sefer Torah writeen by Rabbi Meir of Rotenberg.

TammyTammy

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 2:30 pm

Someone once asked me if I believe in Torah MiSinai.

"Of course not," I responded. Once she got over the initial shock, I explained "I believe in Torah miArvos Moav."

Obviously, the entire Torah (as we now have it) was not given on Har Sinai. I find it extremely hard to believe that things would have played out as they did if Moshe knew in advance about Korach's rebellion, his hitting of the rock, Miraim's tzara'as, the death of his two nephews and probably half a dozen other examples. In addition, it's fairly obvious that the parshiyos of Pesach Sheini, the parsha of the mekoshes eitzim and the laws regarding a daughter being able to inherit in the absence of a son were not given on Sinai (were they given then, why was there any doubt? They could have just looked in the chumash.). The fact that he didn't know in advance of these developments proves that they weren't given at Sinai and that, by extension, the Torah we have today did not come to us (complete) from Mt. Sinai.

The Gemara supports this idea with the opinion that Yehoshua wrote the last eight pesukim of the Torah. If it was given at Sinai, there would have been no need for Yehoshua to write them - Moshe himself could have written them (unless you want to maintain that Yehoshua wrote them at Sinai -- but that's a big stretch). It's pretty clear that the chumash was not complete until at the earliest right before Moshe's death (with many believing it was completed by Yehoshua shortly *after* Moshe's death).

That being said, there is no guarantee that the Torah we have is exactly the same letter-for-letter than the Torah that was given to Moshe at Sinai.

There is a halacha that if a sefer Torah has an extra letter or is missing a letter in a way that does not affect either the pronunciation or the meaning, the sefer is not passul (although it does need to be corrected). The reason given for this is because we are not "baki" (expert) in the chaseiros and yeseiros. As such, it's possible that the Torah originally had it the other way and therefore it's not passul.

Furthermore, there are several places where the Yemenite sifrei Torah are different from ours. While most are of the chaseir and yaseir type, there is one place where it *does* change the meaning/pronunciation.

In addition, please keep in mind the very method that the mesorah was maintained. If they found a sefer with a questionable reading, they would bring two more sefarim. In short, if any two of the three sefarim agreed, that became the agreed-upon standard and the odd one was assumed to be an error. While absent computers and centralized databases this is a fairly good method, it's far from foolproof and it is certainly possible that at some point in history they might have gotten two mistaken sefarim and "corrected" a correct reading. Do I know that this has happened? No, for all I know, it may have never happened -- but no one today can tell you with 100% certainty that it didn't happen either.

And lastly, Moshe's Torah had either an aleph or a heh at the end of dakah. One of our versions *must* be in error.

Tammy

TzenaRena

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 2:52 pm

OP, I would like to refer you to the Hakdamah of the RamBam, which begins "All the mitzvos that were given to Mosheh at Sinai were given with their explanation [ed. Torah Sheb'al Peh]. As is stated "And I gave to you the tablets of stone and the Torah and the Mitzvah. Torah - this is Torah sheb'ksav. vhamitzvah - this is its explanation (Torah sheb'al Peh). And He commanded us to perfor the Torah (precepts) according to the mitzvah. And this Mitzvah is that which is called Torah sheb'al Peh. The entire Torah Moshe Rabbenu wrote before his death with the writing of his hand. And gave the sefer to each and every tribe and one sefer he put into the Aron as a witness....And the Mitzvah, whch is the explanation of the Torah he did not write it, but commanded it to the elders and to Yehoshua and to the rest of Israel....And therefore it is called Torah Sheb'al Peh. Even though TSHBA"P wasn't written as Moshe Rabbenu taught it in its entirety in his Beis Din to the seventy elders....
Here the RamBam enumerates all forty generations from Moshe Rabbenu, until Rav Ashi who compiled the Gemara. Likewise, Rav Yochanon wrote the gemara Yerushalmi. "and from the two gemaros and from the Toseftos and Sifra and Sifri,.. from all are explaied the forbidden and permitted, the impure and the pure, the guilty and the absolved, the passul and the kosher, as one transmitted to the other mipi Moshe from Sinai.

Also will be explained things which the chachomim and n'viim that are in each generation decreed to construct a fence to the Torah as they heard from Moshe outright. As it says" and you shall guard my mishmeres - make a gaurdian to my mishmeres" To be continued.

TammyTammy

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 2:58 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

However,the Alter Rebbe instructed that it should be written with an alef, see Hayom Yom 7 Elul,a sefer Torah written by Ezra HaSofer, preserved in Prague has it with an alef. Also a sefer Torah writeen by Rabbi Meir of Rotenberg.

Do you have further details about this sefer written by Ezra? I would have thought that something like this would be far more well-known.

In any event, it's certainly possible that a sefer written by the Maharam still exists (with an aleph). But I can also point to the Aleppo Codex, which is much earlier than the Maharam which almost certainly had a heh.

Tammy

TammyTammy

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 4:46 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Tzena,

My understand of the OP was that she was asking about the Torah Sheb'ksav -- the written Torah. I understood her question to mean that she was looking for proof that all 304,805 letters that we have in our Torah match the Torah that was given to Moshe on Sinai. I don't think she was asking about the Torah Sheb'al Peh at all.

Tammy

TammyTammy

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 4:49 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Tammy, although you maybe can't resist, I think it's clear that the OP asked for help with answering her friends assertions, and I think you should allow that help to be given without adding further confusion. If OP still has a question after answers are given,then we could continue the discussion on a different angle. After all, this was all brought up in the other thread.

Tzena,

I don't think my answer was off-topic. On the contrary, I thought yours was, as the OP made no mention of the Torah SheBa'al Peh. As such, I answered the question that clearly, the (Written) Torah we currently have was not the same thing that Moshe got on Sinai.

Tammy

TammyTammy

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 5:44 pm

mali wrote:

Two of the 13 principles of faith:

I believe with complete faith that the entire Torah (both Oral and Written), which we now have is that which was given to Moses.

So, how do you account for variations in the text such as that I've listed above? Or for the fact that a defective sefer Torah is not necessarily passul because we aren't certain about the status of our own Torahs?

Quote:

I believe with complete faith that the Torah will not be changed. The Creator will not give another Torah.

I agree 100%.

Quote:

Tammy, I don't understand your above post. Parshas B'shalach was given in its current form at Sinai as well.

Do you think that Moshe brought down Shemos 16:35 from Sinai? Clearly this verse (or else maybe even the whole chapter) was added later on.

Tammy

mali

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 5:51 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

mali wrote:

Two of the 13 principles of faith:

I believe with complete faith that the entire Torah (both Oral and Written), which we now have is that which was given to Moses.

So, how do you account for variations in the text such as that I've listed above?

The only one I know of is the alef-heh one in P'tzua Daka, and TR already explained that one.

Quote:

Or for the fact that a defective sefer Torah is not necessarily passul because we aren't certain about the status of our own Torahs?

Huh? A Passul Torah is Passul! And, BTW, does your comment to this principle of faith mean you don't hold by it?

Quote:

I believe with complete faith that the Torah will not be changed. The Creator will not give another Torah.

I agree 100%.

Quote:

Tammy, I don't understand your above post. Parshas B'shalach was given in its current form at Sinai as well.

Do you think that Moshe brought down Shemos 16:35 from Sinai? Clearly this verse (or else maybe even the whole chapter) was added later on.

This isn't the only place the Torah discusses the future. Have you forgotten that it was given by G-d?

TammyTammy

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 6:00 pm

Mali,

The Yemenite sefarim have several differences from ours. Most are chaseir/yaseir and therefore don't change the meaning or vocalization of the words. However, there is one instance where both are changed.

In our chumashim, B'raishis 9:29 is read "Vayihi Kol Y'mei Noach..." In the Yemenite version, it is read "Vayihiyu Kol Y'mei Noach..." -- with the addition of an extra vav that changes both the vocalization and the meaning. In fact, Machon Mamre has the Yemenite version on line here.

In addition, it is an open halacha (I don't have a halacha sefer handy, so citations will have to wait) that if a ba'al kriah comes across an error that doesn't change the meaning or vocalization (such as the vav from avosainu being missing or added) then the Torah *does not* have to be put away and the laining can continue. The reason for this is because we are not baki in words that have these non-vocalized letters.

(Edit: Halacha citation: Rema Orach Chaim 143:4 where he gives the reason for the halacha, as I described.)

As for your last comment; is it your contention that Moshe came down from Har Sinai with this pasuk? I can see the conversations that must have happened.

Jew: Um, Moshe, about this Torah? I have a quick question.
Moshe: Sure, go ahead. What do you want to know.
Jew: Well, I was looking at this chapter over here about this wonderful manna we've been eating.
Moshe: Yes?
Jew: Well, it says that we're going to be eating this for forty years until we get to Canaan.
Moshe: So?
Jew: Well, Canaan is just a few days travel away from here. Why is it going to take us forty years to get there?
Moshe: Um, well... get back to me after Tisha B'Av.

Tell me, Mali, what would have been your reaction if you were there and Moshe gave you this pasuk right off the mountain before the sin of the Meraglim?

Tammy

TzenaRena

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 7:50 pm

Quote:

My understand of the OP was that she was asking about the Torah Sheb'ksav -- the written Torah. I understood her question to mean that she was looking for proof that all 304,805 letters that we have in our Torah match the Torah that was given to Moshe on Sinai. I don't think she was asking about the Torah Sheb'al Peh at all.

The Rambam is saying that the entire Torah, both B'kesav, and B'al Peh were given by Moshe Rabbenu, from Sinai.
In Sefer hamada, hilchos Teshuva chapter 3 halacha eight, the Rambam declares that he who says that even one word of Torah (sheb'kesav) was not given from Hashem is a Kofer in Torah, including someone who says that Moshe said it on his own, but it is not from Hashem (Sinai). also one who says that it was from Hashem, but now He exchanged one mitzvah with another, and it is nullified ie. no longer relevant.

Likewise someone who denies the Peirush - Torah she'b'al Peh, and one who denies its teachers'. (magideho) ie. the chachomim.
In halacha 6, of ch. 3 the consequences of being a Kofer, min or apikores is discussed.

TzenaRena

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 8:10 pm

Quote:

In Sefer hamada, hilchos Teshuva chapter 3 halacha eight, the Rambam declares that he who says that even one word of Torah (sheb'kesav) was not given from Hashem is a Kofer in Torah,

The Rambam perhaps allows for the question of a difference bet. a scroll that follows the tradition in that kehilla, by the diyyuk of saying one word, but not one letter.

Regardless, the detail about the dakah with an alef or hei, or anything similar to that doesn't change the fact that every single word in Torah is exactly the same. so it doesn't conflict with knowing/believing that the Torah is the exact same Torah, even to those who are fascinated by minute differences, it's really not relevant to the point.

Quote:

Jew: Well, I was looking at this chapter over here about this wonderful manna we've been eating.
Moshe: Yes?
Jew: Well, it says that we're going to be eating this for forty years until we get to Canaan.
Moshe: So?
Jew: Well, Canaan is just a few days travel away from here. Why is it going to take us forty years to get there?
Moshe: Um, well... get back to me after Tisha B'Av.

Tammy don't you know the adage that the Torah speaks in the language of the lower worlds, but alludes to the spiritual worlds? And the truth is even stronger: that the Torah speaks (predominantly) in the language of the spiritual worlds, and (merely) alludes to the physical world.

That means that the meaning that we understand in our finite way is only a code for the inner, spiritual dimension of existence. So that for example in the phrase "Bo el Phaaroh", Phaaroh is the term used to refer to a level of G-dliness which is characterized by "ispariu kol nehorin" a wildly expansive revelation.

When we understand that, there cease to be what may appear as discrepancies in past, present, future and so on.