Talks back,entitled brat attitude 4.5 year old.!??

amother

Papaya

Sun, Dec 13 2015, 6:38 pm

My 4.5 year old daughter lately has been acting like an entitled brat, so for example when we go to the store she asks if I could buy her something, so sometimes I do but most times I tell her that this is not possible because we don't need anything for her, and I remind her of all te stuff she has home, so she answers " no no I really want I really want" and go into semi tantrumy voice,she doesn't get a tantrum because I get very upset and with a very stern voice I tell her to cut it.
Also she answers back and argue a lot " So and so please put on your coat" she answers " no but I don't want to" so I say " its cold so and so, you have to " she replies " but I don't think it's cold" so I say " its cold outside even if ts not cold here, and you need to listen to mommy, so put on your coat" so she answers " but last week it was cold and I didn't put on my coat " and so on...the Obly way she will comply is if I use that nasty stern threatening voice of mine and I tell her " Put on Your coat NOW!!!" And or " no more talking back, quiet"...

I don't like parenting like that, its a struggle, I feel that all she does is argue and talk back,and all I do is speak to her harshly.
HELP!!???

Zehava

Sun, Dec 13 2015, 6:56 pm

Looks like you might benefit from 123 magic. Where you're going wrong is you're treating your daughter like a little adult. You think of you can convince her enough she'll say "gee you're right I never saw it this way before". But you know that won't happen right? You have to avoid getting into arguments and power struggles with her.

ckk

Sun, Dec 13 2015, 6:57 pm

I think the reasoning and negotiating isn't getting you anywhere.
Maybe try the first time you tell her to do something saying it in a matter of fact firm voice. Not harsh but not either asking. More like this is what we are doing now. And then move on. If she doesn't listen then either ignore and shel realize she's not getting a rise out of you. Or if you wanna make it happen then follow one of the known discipline techniques like timeout.
Same with asking for something in a store just say no. No explanation. And distract her. Or let her whine. But don't answer.

the world's best mom

Sun, Dec 13 2015, 8:59 pm

1,2,3 magic is great. Here's how our conversations go:

Me: Please put your coat on now.

ds: (Throws his coat on the floor) No, I don't want to wear my coat.

Me: If your coat is not on by the time I count to 3, then you won't be able to choose a bag of chips in the grocery. 1,2, thank you. Now we can go.

I say "1,2, thank you" numerous times every day.

My theory is that I have to win every battle between me and any of my children, and therefore I don't start a battle unless it's one worth fighting. I can say yes right at the beginning, or I can be stuck fighting with my kid. You have to choose when it's worth the battle.

seeker

Sun, Dec 13 2015, 9:30 pm

TWBM, what you're describing doesn't sound exactly like 1-2-3 Magic, which is a pretty specific method, but glad it works for you.

I go more for the empathetic route - I think it's important to acknowledge the feelings and then talk about how to deal with them appropriately. I do this hand-in-hand with firmness, it's not all wishy-washy. "You REALLY want the ____/Those do look like nice ____ and I bet you could really have fun with that. Today we came to the store for ----- and we are not buying _____. I know it's disappointing/I'm sorry, it feels bad. Hey look, there is the ----- we were looking for!"

I don't think shutting down the whining without first acknowledging the feeling is helpful to the child in the long run (though it may save your ears and brain for now) because they just end up with their feelings shut down and invalidated.

On the other hand I don't spend my whole day psychoanalyzing - you have to judge which things are feelingsy (not getting what you want) vs nonsense/habit (arguing over coat.) With the coat I am much more likely to just put my foot down and would not even begin to engage in the argument or it never ends. It helps if there is something to look forward to if they move quickly - I don't do much bribing but it could be something like not having to run like a madwoman to make the bus. Or stopping to look at something interesting on the way. Or something like that - natural consequences.

ckk

Sun, Dec 13 2015, 11:46 pm

seeker wrote:

I go more for the empathetic route - I think it's important to acknowledge the feelings and then talk about how to deal with them appropriately. I do this hand-in-hand with firmness, it's not all wishy-washy. "You REALLY want the ____/Those do look like nice ____ and I bet you could really have fun with that. Today we came to the store for ----- and we are not buying _____. I know it's disappointing/I'm sorry, it feels bad. Hey look, there is the ----- we were looking for!"

I don't think shutting down the whining without first acknowledging the feeling is helpful to the child in the long run (though it may save your ears and brain for now) because they just end up with their feelings shut down and invalidated.

On the other hand I don't spend my whole day psychoanalyzing - you have to judge which things are feelingsy (not getting what you want) vs nonsense/habit (arguing over coat.) With the coat I am much more likely to just put my foot down and would not even begin to engage in the argument or it never ends. It helps if there is something to look forward to if they move quickly - I don't do much bribing but it could be something like not having to run like a madwoman to make the bus. Or stopping to look at something interesting on the way. Or something like that - natural consequences.

Really really like this post. Much better than mine Smile

5*Mom

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 1:31 am

I also vote validate the feelings while still, calmly, saying no.

Except I wouldn't make an issue at all over the coat. This is one she can totally figure out on her own, but she won't if you get in the way. For kids to learn stuff, like, if I don't take a coat in the winter I'll be really cold, a parent has to be willing to step aside and let them make a poor choice in the interest of better future choices. So I totally would not push the coat. Ever.

You need to stop looking at every interaction with your DD as a battle. That's what she's doing - but for her, it's age appropriate - and you are escalating. You are the adult. You need to deescalate. Choose your 2 or 3 most important issues and let the other stuff go. Your DD wants more control over her life. Give her some.

seeker

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 1:33 am

If it's really cold, I'd take the coat along though. That way at least when she does realize she's cold she would only be uncomfortable for a minute or so while you get it on rather than freezing all day, which would be maybe abusive depending on the circumstances.

5*Mom

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 1:40 am

seeker wrote:

Maybe not at this stage with a combative child. She'd still view it as controlling and to save face, she'd not ask for the coat even if she were freezing. I might suggest that she take it along but I wouldn't push it. She'll get there eventually, faster if mom takes a very hands-off approach.

ETA: The general premise is this: their relationship is in a rocky place so anything mom does is likely to be viewed as controlling rather than helpful and caring. She needs to work on improving their relationship and communicating trust in DD's ability to make good choices for herself (age-appropriate, of course) and when they are in a better place, DD will be able to see mom as helpful and caring rather than controlling.

piegirl

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 9:40 am

I suggest buying the parenting book by Sara Chana Radcliffe. I can't remember what it's called but can look it up later g you want. Basically, you turn everything into a power struggle with your daughter and she wants to win. You can try to say things in a roundabout way. For example, "Sara, it's time to go to school. Let's put on our coats so we can get there quickly!"
It's a lot of work at first but it becomes second nature after a while.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 11:16 am

Lots of good advice here. Age 4 was by FAR the hardest age for us, and DD is now 12 and headed straight into puberty, so that's saying a lot.

The power struggles are epic, and never ending. Your child is looking for strong boundaries, even as she rails against them with all her might. The world is big and scary, and you need to show her that her place in it is solid and well defined. Too much freedom is terrifying, deep down. I've noticed that after a major tantrum, if I hold firm yet loving, DD is much happier afterward, and very sweet. It's like she NEEDED to go through that and come out the other side, knowing that I am still there for her when the "storms hit".

Age 4 is not too early to start parenting with natural consequences. Not punishment, but simply X happened, so now Y is happening, without any emotional baggage attached to it. "You're cold? Next time maybe you'll want your coat." Getting cold for one day won't hurt anyone, unless you live in Alaska.

Speaking of coats, remember that most kids have a much higher metabolism than you do, and many of them "run hot". DD can walk through the snow in bare feet, because she is a sensory seeker. I let her, because there is no harm in it. Personally, I'm out there with her bundled up like the Michelin Man! She'll come in when she's ready.

A lot of times, you have to relax and realize that you need to lose some battles in order to win the war. This the the main motto of parenting!

SRS

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 1:25 pm

You mention two battles. One, wanting things from stores without need. Two, not putting on a coat. #1 is important. She needs to learn to go in and out of a store without being indulged in the want of the day. #2 will work itself out if she is cold. So grab the coat and walk out the door. You might get some talk back from a Bubbe-type over 70 years old, but if she needs her coat, she will let you know. The key to executing the no coat (or in the case of my oldest, no clothes) is to say, no problem and then walk straight out the door with stuff in hand. You might have to dress your kid in the lobby, but your kid will ask you when they see snow on the ground or when the cold air hits them in the face.

chocolate chips

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 1:38 pm

I found that 123 Magic only worked for a while. Once my son got the hang of it he outsmarted us and used it "against" us as in he just ignored it or he let me count to 3, got what he wanted/went to time out and then continued not listening just as before.

4.5 is an impossible age so far. Terrible Twos and stubborn 4s.

5*Mom

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 1:45 pm

SRS wrote:

OP's description is completely age-appropriate and this too is a non-issue. When the answer must be no, all she needs to say is, "No, not today." Nicely and sympathetically. No explanations and no inventory of all the wonderful things she has at home necessary. If she tantrums or whines, "I know you don't like it when I say no." That's it. If she whines, she whines. If she uses a tantrum-y voice to express her disappointment or frustration or anger at the unfairness of life at 4 when other people get to decide everything about your life and you get precious little, if any, autonomy, so be it. Sometimes parents need to learn that it's okay for kids to be upset and we don't necessarily need to shut that down. We can be understanding and empathetic and we can keep shopping.

ETA: OP, your 4.5 yr old DD doesn't have an entitled brat attitude; she has a normal 4.5 yr old attitude. If it's hard to parent a 4.5 yr old, it's at least as hard to *be* a 4.5 yr old. Sometimes it helps to see the world from your child's perspective. You don't necessarily need to change your no to a yes but a little understanding goes a long way.

Fox

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 2:08 pm

Lots of good suggestions. Like 5*Mom, I agree that much of what the OP described is pretty typical for a 4.5-year-old.

An additional suggestion:

Reframe outings to the store or elsewhere as privileges. Now, you and I know that you probably have to take her, but you don't have to make that obvious.

If you're planning a trip to a new or different store, tell her well in advance. Explain that in order to go to this store with you, she'll need to act like a grown-up. That means no begging, no running around, no whining, dressing appropriately, etc. Is she willing to do that?

Of course, with the proper build-up, she'll agree, and that's when the role-playing comes in. Prepare her for each stage of the journey: "We'll probably pass a display of toys. What will you do when you see them?" You can have her practice looking or remarking positively on the display -- but no begging. Devise a secret word that you can say to her if she starts to slip.

If she's not 100 percent successful, that's okay. Tell her she did well but that a little more practice is needed before the next trip. If she does extremely well, give her a small treat of some sort.

morah

Mon, Dec 14 2015, 3:04 pm

You need to stop thinking of this as an attitude. It's typical 4 year old behavior. Just like a 2 year old isn't stubborn for saying no to everything, he's doing what all 2 year olds do, so too, your daughter doing what all 4 year olds do. My 4 year old is going through this exact stage and its super frustrating, but totally normal. He doesn't have an attitude, so I don't take it personally. Just like I don't take it personally when my 2 year old dumps his dinner on the floor.
You got a lot of good advice. When mine get whiny or argumentative, I shut it down. I tell him Imma can't hear him so well when he talks like that. Imma only hears nice talking. At this point he doesn't even ask for stuff in the store because it's not even a hava amina that he would ever get something on a run of the mill errand. I don't argue about things either. If it's something that is non-negotiable (like, say, being strapped in a car seat) then it's too bad, not up to him and there's nothing to talk about. For something like a coat, where the worst that'll happen is that he'll be a little cold, I also don't argue. I remind him it'll be cold, if he still decides he doesn't want his coat, I let him learn from that mistake.
Every age has its boundary pushing frustration. In a few years, she'll be telling you she hates you when she doesn't get what she wants. Again, normal for that stage. These things are all very frustrating, but if you know it's typical behavior for age, it takes away some of the bite and that makes it a little easier to handle.