100K for a shidduch in Israel?????

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Dec 25 2015, 2:25 pm

Maybe Ashkenazim, who earn higher salaries, don't live with their parents. In my extended family (Mizrachi, mostly between Masoreti to Chareidi) virtually everyone I can think of who has grandchildren has at least one married child living with them, some have 2 or more. And about 90% of unmarried adult children are living with their parents, regardless of their age.

We came from a town on the periphery, where housing prices were 'low'. So were salaries, and so was employment. We could not manage to live there without continuing to live with one set of parents indefinitely, without significant help from parents, so we came to the USA. We are lucky that we have that chance. We lived very frugally, we needed about $1,200 USD per month.

Living in the periphery also means much worse schools. I know quite a lot of people, who have gone all through school in the periphery who are plenty smart, who are functionally illiterate. Maybe this is different in Ashkenazi - majority schools.

If you are a religious person in your 20s, and you live in Israel, you are expected to get married, have children (you aren't supposed to have extramarital --, and you aren't supposed to use BC indefinitely when you have no children) and people want you to stay in Israel. How are you supposed to support this family without help if you are a contractor married to a daycare worker? It's not a matter of not working hard enough, or not being independent. We are the exact same people here in the USA and are self sufficient and send money back to Israel. Ironically, my relatives who are sitting and learning in kolel need less help because they get better public assistance.

So the problem is not just that the kollel lifestyle is not self sufficient; life in Israel in general, if you are not in the upper half, is not self sufficient.

DrMom

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 11:58 am

amother wrote:

You say the local school is of such low quality that graduates are functionally illiterate -- is this a public school or chinuch atzmait? Are students studying subjects which can lead to the acquisition of marketable skills? Are they learning the core curriculum? Where do most graduates of these high schools go afterwards? If being a contractor and a daycare worker is not sufficient, can you train for another profession? And how many children are you supporting on these salaries?

m in Israel

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 1:14 pm

DrMom wrote:

As amother is now living in the U.S. she can't answer yet, but I just want to point at that she specified this schools were schools that were not majority Ashkenazic. That means if it was not a public school it is more likely to be part of the El Maayan network than the Chinuch Atzmai network. Not that this really makes a difference in your question -- I have no reason to assume any substantial differences in the networks. I assume the quality of the education is more a function of the population (poorer districts have worse schools in the public school system, and I would assume a similar issue exists in the private systems) than which particular network the schools were associated with. But I just wanted to point it out.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:44 pm

amother wrote:

Living in the periphery also means much worse schools. I know quite a lot of people, who have gone all through school in the periphery who are plenty smart, who are functionally illiterate. Maybe this is different in Ashkenazi - majority schools.

I don't know which town you lived in or what schools you are referring to. However, I spent over a decade living in one of these 'development towns' and I have plenty of experience with their schools, from secular to torani. I also have plenty (read - years and years) of experience with schools in the merkaz. I can tell you that there is not such a big difference in the system or the teachers; the big difference is the students themselves, the socio-economic level.

A student who is 'plenty smart' as you define it, will do fine in a regular mamlachti or mamlachti-dati school in a development town. He may have a few less options to choose from, there may not be advanced physics offered as a matter of course, but he should leave with a bagrut diploma fit for university, if he is indeed smart (and motivated).

BTW, I am talking about schools and towns where there are very few ashkenazim- most development towns are majority sepharadim.

I know several graduates of these schools in these towns who are now lawyers or working on their phDs. Why are most graduates not doing that? Not because of the school, believe me, but because of the socio-economic level, cultural expectations, atmosphere at home, etc.

Don't blame the schools. Most of them do their very best to push the kids to achieve a great bagrut.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:50 pm

amother wrote:

We came from a town on the periphery, where housing prices were 'low'. So were salaries, and so was employment. We could not manage to live there without continuing to live with one set of parents indefinitely, without significant help from parents, so we came to the USA. We are lucky that we have that chance. We lived very frugally, we needed about $1,200 USD per month.
......

How are you supposed to support this family without help if you are a contractor married to a daycare worker?

Many, many young couples who live in the periphery leave for the big cities (Tel Aviv, Haifa, etc) in search of work. It's true that housing costs more there, but what good is cheap housing without a job? I assume also in the US you are paying more for housing than in the development town.

Daycare workers receive minimum wage, unless you can open your own gan and you are successful at it, in which case you can do quite well.
I agree that it's hard to suppost a family on that kind of wage, unless your spouse is doing really well. A contractor....well, as you know, some are extremely wealthy, and some aren't breaking even.

Are you working these two jobs in the US also?

amother

Turquoise

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 8:28 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Don't blame the homes; Mizrahim who are born in Africa or Asia are more likely to have college degrees than Mizrahim born in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-.....84990

Mizrahim in the US, in France, in the UK go to college and do very well. So do you think the Mizrahim in Israel or dumber or less motivated? Or do you think that there is a problem in the Mizrahi schools in Israel? Most people who I know in Israel who go through the schools come out as security guards, construction workers, locksmiths, truck-drivers, hairdressers, daycare workers, cashiers, house cleaners...lower-paying jobs. The statistics show this; this is not only my personal experience.

We are not a contractor married to a daycare worker. I didn't want to give our exact professions because I want to remain anonymous, so I picked something more common that makes an equivalent amount of money. In the USA, my DH has a job that requires less training than he had in Israel and he is working in his 3rd language (Hebrew and Arabic are better than his English) and I am presently staying home with our kids and we still pull in more money than we did in Israel. DH has a degree in Israel. It didn't help much. He did college prep in high school and still had to do a year of remedial work (which he did in his first stint in Chul, in English) to get into a low quality university in Israel. He is motivated, reads a lot, and still has a patchy education like a lot of people who learned most of what they learned on their own. We miss our family, we miss Israel, but we and our kids will have a more sustainable future here. We are definitely not uncommon because in the last 10 years 1 million Israelis have emigrated to North America. I would bet that most of these are Mizrahim.

DrMom

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 1:27 am

amother wrote:

It is no big secret that the cost of living (minus school tuition) is higher in Israel, and salaries are generally lower. Ask anyone who made aliyah. Still, was that your only choice? Leave the development town where you grew up or become yordim? The Israeli economy is actually doing quite well compared to the US; did you try to find a job elsewhere in E"Y? You could certainly be closer to your family that way (among other advantages).

Also, most people -- Ashkenazi, Mizrachi, Ethiopian, etc. -- whom I know who went to university in Israel certainly have more lucrative careers than the ones you listed. Which university in Israel is "low quality?" There are 9 universities in Israel: Tel Aviv U, Hebrew U, Bar Ilan, Weizmann Institute, The Technion, Haifa U., U Beer Sheva, Ariel U., and the Open University. Which one of these are "low quality?"

And if the Mizrachi school was problematic (you suggested this; not me), why don't you send your kids elsewhere? As Tablepoetry said, education is very standardized in Israel; the curriculum (at least in state schools; that's why I asked if this was chinuch atzmai) must include core subjects, and the textbooks must be from a govt-approved list, and the curriculum must include a specific set of classes each year. Even if the town does not have access to many of the resources found in large cities, the basics should still be taught. Graduates are "functionally illiterate?" What exactly happened at this school your DH attended?

Finally, where are you getting your statistics about the number and demographics of yordim? This article cites a Pew Study stating that in 2012, the number of Israelis living in the US is estimated at 230,000 -- how do you get 1 million? And I have not found any breakdown of the ethnic origins of these Israelis. Please provide sources.

I get the feeling that you are generalizing from your very particular experiences to the whole of Israel.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 1:48 am

DrMom wrote:

I said most people who go through the schools, not who go through university. Most mizrahim do not go to university. I don't want to name a specific university on an anonymous forum.

Here is an article on emigration http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/.....elis/

And you made my point. It's hard to make it financially in israel, it's harder still for some people, and therefore it's not reasonable to want people to live in israel and be "self sufficient" and not get help with housing.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 2:10 am

amother wrote:

Mizrahim in the US, in France, in the UK go to college and do very well. So do you think the Mizrahim in Israel or dumber or less motivated? Or do you think that there is a problem in the Mizrahi schools in Israel? Most people who I know in Israel who go through the schools come out as security guards, construction workers, locksmiths, truck-drivers, hairdressers, daycare workers, cashiers, house cleaners...lower-paying jobs. The statistics show this; this is not only my personal experience.

I agree that mizrahim abroad seem to do better/be more educated than those in Israel. Why? I am not sure what the answer is. Part of it probably is due to ingrained prejudices in Israel, and to the fact that many of these mizrachim were sent to live in far off development towns, insteadof being allowed to develop in Tel Aviv or the like. Part of it may be the culture clash. Part of it may be that they are indeed different groups, that the mizrachim that decided to move to France are not those who decided to move to Israel.

But I am extremely familiar with many schools that have a majority mizrachi population (I won't call them mizrachi schools!). The curriculum is the same. The teachers are the same (I used to be under the impression that the teachers in north Tel Aviv are better, but believe me, they are not). There are a ton of scholarships and affirmative action moves to get them into university.

There used to be 'haslala' where they directed (mainly mizrachi) kids to vocational studies in grade nine already, thereby destroying any chance of university. That barely exists anymore; everyone is encouraged to go for a bagrut. Maybe your husband is of the previous generation and was indeed denied bagrut studies.

So why are these development town schools not succeeding as much? I return to what I said earlier, it's because of the population. There is not as much of an emphasis on studies, not as much of an expectation that the kids will go to university. It's just not the culture. If there is extra money, it isn't usually put aside for private lessons. Again, generalizing, but I bet if someone would do a study on it, they would discover that discretionary income is not channeled towards studies in development towns, whereas it is in cities with successful high school graduates.

Last edited by Tablepoetry on Sun, Dec 27 2015, 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 2:15 am

amother wrote:

And you made my point. It's hard to make it financially in israel, it's harder still for some people, and therefore it's not reasonable to want people to live in israel and be "self sufficient" and not get help with housing.

I agree with you here, that most people do get help with housing, usually from their parents.

The question being raised in these threads, I think, is why people think they can 'have it all' by begging from others. It's not really possible in Israel to have a huge family, live off one income, and still help your kids with downpayment. You want that, you need to compromise on something.

People aren't up in arms that young marrieds need help with housing, but rather, that certain groups here are dependant upon Americans to subsidize this for them, when these Americans may be struggling themselves (and from this board, I can understand that people don't necessarily struggle less in America.).

DrMom

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 4:06 am

amother wrote:

You conveniently ignored most of what I wrote. Saying, "it's harder to make it in Israel vs. the US" (although free school tuition can easily tip the scales the other way) is a lot different from saying "the schools here are so terrible that the most one can aspire to be is a locksmith or housecleaner, and your children will graduate illiterate, and universities stink, and there are no jobs, and everyone should just leave."

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 12:52 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

If it's just not the culture, then why are Mizrahim in Israel who were born in Africa or Asia more likely to have college degrees? Did the culture suddenly change when they got to Israel? Was a Moroccan in Morocco more education oriented, and suddenly got to Israel and said 'hey, I'll just spend my money on toys, I don't need to get an education'? Why would that happen? Was the public education in Morocco better, and they didn't need to pay for private lessons? Because if you need to pay for private lessons to supplement the public school education to go to college, that's not saying very much for the level of education in the public schools.

And if the education is equal, why is the income gap so big?
http://www.timesofisrael.com/s.....ahim/

Unless you think Mizrahim are more lazy or stupid (which would make you sounds pretty racist), if there isn't either a huge racism problem or a huge education problem (or both) what reason is there for such a big income gap?

And lots of Mizrahim are trying to send their kids to 'Ashkenazi' schools because we think they are better. And then you see all of this controversy and schools shutting down and segregation in the schools. And usually, this means you would want to live in the center, where you then run into the high housing costs again. So this is why people on this thread suggested living in the periphery to begin with.

So around and around we go, and then it's not sustainable (because if an average family has 4 kids, let's say, and only one will go to college and get a higher-paying job, can you realistically continue to have everyone else living in the same house when they marry and have kids?) without outside help, and then people say it's unfair to ask Americans to subsidize it (which it is!) but the 100K NIS for a shidduch is just a symptom of a bigger problem that is not limited to Charedi circles. It's not because they are Charedi.

And I don't think everyone should leave Israel. I think that everyone should stop thinking about what they want Israel to be right now and face the reality of what it IS right now, and put our heads together and fix it! The first step to fixing a problem is to figure out what is the problem.

DrMom

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 1:57 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe the quality of Moroccan universities is lower? Or maybe Moroccan pubic schools are flat-out fabulous. This seems like a red herring. How does this matter? Do you want to move to Morocco?

For the record, I don't know what "Mizrahi schools" are. Can you please explain *exactly* what you are talking about? Our local public dati schools are not segregated by ethnicity.

I do know that our local schools prepare students for higher education and/or the workforce. Do these "Mizrahi schools" to which you refer do this? If not, is this due to ethnicity, location, or hashkafa?

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 2:39 pm

amother wrote:

Because if you need to pay for private lessons to supplement the public school education to go to college, that's not saying very much for the level of education in the public schools.

It is an unfortunate reality in most schools in Israel that you are going to need private teachers/tutors in high school if you want a 5 pt bagrut in math/physics/even English. (BTW, you can get into college with a 4 pt bagrut, just not in certain faculties)

Yes, it is a major problem. I dont recall saying the school system was perfect, I just said it wasnt anti-mizrachi.

Anyway, today in many, many development towns the kids are offered almost free tutoring in the evenings. One program I am aware of only costs 100 NIS per month, and the kids come on a drop-in basis four evenings a week. That's practically free, considering an hour with a tutor can cost 80-140 NIS, depending on location.

But it is true that those who set money aside for learning purposes, like tutors, will fare better than kids from homes where no money is set aside for extra education. Unfair, but true.