David and Batsheva

amother

Black

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 7:44 pm

Can anyone tell me what is the explanation of the story of Davids and Batsheva as it might be presented to a high school age girl in a frum kiruv-type yeshiva? My niece asked me about it, she wanted to understand what David's sin was, and I had no idea really embarrassed

. She's not sheltered, could handle the relationship aspect....

amother

Amber

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 7:54 pm

That is so funny I just did an assignment where I used Dovid and Batsheva for a lesson plan. What happened is pretty simply stated in the pshat of Shmuel Bet Perek Yud Alef.
Dovid saw Batsheva bathing and he wanted her even though she was married. They slept together, she got pregnant, and he sent her husband Uriyahto the front line of war in order for him to be killed, which he was.
I read about it and there are a ton of opinions on whether this was halachically allowed, whether Dovid actually sinned, whether this skews the morality of Dovid in our eyes.
A really interesting article I read was https://www.ou.org/torah/nach/.....heva/
I think you'll find everything you need there.
Good luck!

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 7:55 pm

Actually the gemorah says that to say Dovid sinned is "eino elah Toeh" nothing but mistaken.

but I think if I remember correctly even if Dovid Hamelech didn't sin, for someone on his level, he went about it in a way that left room for doubt when other option may have been available. not sure exactly what that means, don't know enough.

but why are you going there, just tell her this is indeed quite difficult to understand and requires knowing a lot of gemorah and medrash to understand. For example again if I remember correctly even though she was married she wan't "married" so to speak and that is why Dovid Hamelech could marry her or something like that.

LOL because we were not tested on this perek.

chavs

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 7:59 pm

If she was married, wouldn't that make their child a mamzer?

amother

Black

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:00 pm

Thank you!!

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:03 pm

uh....the pshat in that perek is not the whole story....I hope you didn't teach it that way to your students.

According to what you said, simply stated, Batsheva was an Eishes Ish which would leave Malchus Bais Dovid as severely compromised lineage-wise which in turn would mean that anyone claiming to be a descendant of Dovid Hamelech.....(okay he had many sons but still, Mashiach is coming from that union.)

This is just not the case. So you are definitely not right saying the story went as the passukim are written. Obviously there is more there.

As for the discussion of sins, this is not what it means.

tigerwife

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:04 pm

I believe she was married, and then her husband was sent to the frontlines of the army which basically sealed his death. I believe that was the sin.

Dovid saw with ruach Hakodesh that he was meant to marry Batsheva. That's what makes the story hard to understand- was this a sin or not? Should he have taken matters into his own hands?

Please consult a Sefer, though, it's been years since I learned this. Actually, if anyone can recommend a good place to learn navi comprehensively, I would really appreciate it!

suremom

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:09 pm

when a man leaves to the front lines he leaves a get for his wife. so she had a get. also, there are 10 (?)'sins' duvid hamelech allegedly did, but I read that when moshiach will come it will become clear to us that none of it was actually an aveira.

amother

Navy

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:13 pm

Quote:

If she was married, wouldn't that make their child a mamzer?

Totally not, in halacha a mamzer is only a child of a forbidden union e.g. eishes ish (married woman) and probably incest as defined in Torah.

Child out of wedlock is no particular blemish.

ETA sorry I was tired. I thought you said, if she wasn't married. Carry on.

chavs

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:15 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

If she was married, wouldn't that make their child a mamzer?

Totally not, in halacha a mamzer is only a child of a forbidden union e.g. eishes ish (married woman) and probably incest as defined in Torah.

Child out of wedlock is no particular blemish.

Well if she was a married woman as stated above that would make their child a mamzer! That's what I asked and you said no and than us (and why are you anon?)

cnc

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:16 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

If she was married, wouldn't that make their child a mamzer?

Totally not, in halacha a mamzer is only a child of a forbidden union e.g. eishes ish (married woman) and probably incest as defined in Torah.

Child out of wedlock is no particular blemish.

Read the post that you quoted Wink

The poster is asking, assuming that she was MARRIED (eishes ish), wouldn't that make her child a mamzer?

chavs

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:16 pm

I just read the ou article and it says she is only between 6-8 years old, what on earth? Can someone explain how this is not the bigger issue please!

suremom

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:17 pm

chavs wrote:

Well if she was a married woman as stated above that would make their child a mamzer! That's what I asked and you said no and than us (and why are you anon?)

she had a get!
read the related thread listed on bottom. its pretty conclusive.

SYA

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:44 pm

When the men would go to war, in order not to have problems of agunah (prisoner of war or killed at the battle front and body not recovered), the men would give their wife a get. Upon return from battle, they would return to their wives. Some opinions say it was a get al tnai in case they don't return. But if they would return the get would be cancelled. Other opinions say it was a full get, but it was understood that the ladies would wait for their husband to return (usually 12 months) and then get remarried to them.

Last edited by SYA on Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

SYA

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:51 pm

Continued:
In this case Batsheva had a get from her husband. It was still considered an Aveira as it was either al tnai or she was expected to wait.

trixx

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:56 pm

amother wrote:

Dovid saw Batsheva bathing and he wanted her even though she was married. They slept together, she got pregnant, and he sent her husband Uriyahto the front line of war in order for him to be killed, which he was.

He was not "lusting after a woman bathing in the moonlight". G-d forbid. That's patently untrue and an insult to his character - this is the tzadik who wrote the Tehilim - and the entire Jewish people for viewing him as our hero!

He saw through ruach hakodesh that this woman would be the mother of his future heir and forerunner of Moshiach.

Whenever the neshama of Moshiach had to come into the world, it had to be in a very "scandalous" way so as to trick the satan into allowing such kedushah into the world. In fact, think about the weirdest stories, the ones they skip over in school. Each union brought about a progenitor of Moshiach. Ex 1 Yehuda and Tamar - Peretz. 2 Rus and Boaz -father of Yishai. 3 Dovid and Batsheva - Shlomo. (after Shlomo it's already established. These are the 3 biggest turning points.)

amother wrote:

but why are you going there, just tell her this is indeed quite difficult to understand and requires knowing a lot of gemorah and medrash to understand.

Disagree. She deserves an answer. There are plenty. Look them up.

First of all, open the navi and read the story for yourself. Don't rely on the thus-far posted really sketchy answers. (and I can say that confidently having recently looked it up to teach it)

Pshat (but look inside for the details, this is just off-hand and may be out of order): Dovid saw Batsheva. He slept with her. (Dovid required all his men to give their wives gittin in case they wouldn't return from war, so technically she was NOT an aishes ish. which is a moot point bc...) She became pregnant. Dovid sent for Batsheva's husband Uriah, who insulted Dovid and thus was mored b'malchus and liable to the death penalty. Dovid then sent him to the front lines (letting his general Yoav know that he deserved death) where he was killed, and he then married Batsheva.

The navi Nasan came to Dovid with a mashal of a rich man with many sheep who killed a poor man's single and beloved sheep. Dovid ruled that he deserved punishment for stealing. Nasan declared Dovid the rich man in his tale. Batsheva's infant died and Dovid realized this is his punishment.

Dovid and Batsheva then had Shlomo. Remember that Batsheva was a complete tzadeikes and it is about her that Shlomo later wrote the famous Eishes Chayil (after she chastised him for marrying the Egyptian princess who made him oversleep the morning of the dedication of the BHMK).

trixx

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 8:57 pm

cnc wrote:

Read the post that you quoted Wink

The poster is asking, assuming that she was MARRIED (eishes ish), wouldn't that make her child a mamzer?

This is besides the point. That child died. Shlomo was born after they were fully married.

amother

Wine

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 9:11 pm

"Whenever the neshama of Moshiach had to come into the world, it had to be in a very "scandalous" way so as to trick the satan into allowing such kedushah into the world. In fact, think about the weirdest stories, the ones they skip over in school. Each union brought about a progenitor of Moshiach. Ex 1 Yehuda and Tamar - Peretz. 2 Rus and Boaz -father of Yishai. 3 Dovid and Batsheva - Shlomo. (after Shlomo it's already established. These are the 3 biggest turning points.) "

The fourth was Lot's daughters.

sequoia

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 9:21 pm

Everybody makes mistakes.

Even great heroes.

No human is perfect.

Only Hashem.

Why are we deifying people?

A tzaddik is not someone who never makes mistakes or falls into sin.

Really, I don't understand this.

trixx

Mon, Feb 15 2016, 9:26 pm

amother wrote:

The stories I mentioned involve our tzadikim.

(Besides, we don't expect anything from Lot's daughters. I mean, he offered them up to the townspeople to rape instead of his guests (talk about twisted morals) so it's not completely shocking if they turn around and engage in incest with him. Also it was self-preservation - they thought they were the last of the human race.)