Best way to answer a teen about H's existence?

Mrs.Norris

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 1:06 pm

as their's no 'proof' it's pretty difficult, I remember when I used to ask this to a teacher and he gave the worst answers ever it totally ruined my view on Judaism. I guess you just say we know because we look at the Torah - all of that is pretty difficult for a person to have made up, and no human could have written such a thing as throughout the Torah so many different types of writing are used. When a person like Shakespeare wrote literature he could only write in a certain style. Whereas in the Torah you get so many styles - poetry, liturgy, law ... therefore it has to have been given by G-d.
I don't know if the answer would be good enough though or maybe it's too complicated.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 2:35 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

WE JUST HAD THIS DISCUSSION FRIDAY NIGHT! I talked about random life on other planets. That if our world was so random, how come it doesn’t appear anywhere else?

She bought it.

You don't *know* that life doesn't appear anywhere else. You don't even *know* that there's no other life in our solar system.

Tammy

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 2:35 pm

do we really know anything for sure?
how do we know we are even real? that I am in my body talking to you...

these are complex questions that cannot be answered in one sentence

for some, people know Hashem exists through an intellectual way...that they follow certian logical arguments to come to know Hashem exists (good books to look at would be "Permission to Believe" and "Permission to Receive" by Lawrence Kelemen)

for others, they know Hashem exists through feeling and inspiration...

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 2:57 pm

The Torah was given on Mount Sinai to 600,000 men plus women and children. If someone at the time would have tried to make this up the people would have said: how come we weren't there? Are you trying to tell us that we were at something we can't remember?

If someone a few generations later would have made it up, then people would have said: how come we never heard about this till now.

You can't just invent a historical event, all the more so when accepting it as true is not just a belief, but involves taking on 613 mitzvos. Who would do that if some crackpot turned up and told them 'they' or their ancestors had received the Torah.

I'm sure people here can refer you to books which write about this in more detail.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:11 pm

shalhevet wrote:

This is the classic Kuzari proof. The problem with it is that it relies on the assumption that there really were 600,000 men there to begin with. What if it happened with only a few thousand and later on the number became inflated (as many myths do)? The only way you know that there were 600K people to begin with is because... the Torah says so. In short, the problem is that the Kuzari "proof" uses the Torah to prove the Torah. That, in short, is no proof at all.

Tammy

(NB -- before someone calls me an apikores -- I'm not stating that the Torah isn't true or that Sinai didn't happen. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the proof.)

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:18 pm

Yes, the answer Shalhevet writes is from the Kuzari. We aas a nation of millions of souls witnessed the Giving of the Torah firsthand. The Torah has been transmitted by each generation to the following one with no breaks in the links of the chain, up till this present day.

As a result, all around the world, all Jews keep the same exact 613 mitzvos and learn the same Torah. Or you can go the reverse...the fact that we all keep the same mitzvos, and learn the same Torah is a proof that Hashem gave us the Torah.

another proof that the Torah is G-d given, is that in the laws of Kashrus, in Shmini and Re'eh there are four animals mentioned that have one of the simanei kashrus, but not the other. either they chew their cud, and don't have split hooves, or they have split hooves, but don't chew the cud. They are the Gamal,(camel) arneves (hare)shafan (hyrax - according to trans. of Living Torah by Kaplan)and chazir (pig).

Up till this present day, no other animals with either one sign or the other- but not both- have been discovered!

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:27 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Except that the list of Mitzvos weren't codified until much later on. And some of the different codifiers each have slightly different lists of the 613 Mitzvos!

Quote:

another proof that the Torah is G-d given, is that in the laws of Kashrus, in Shmini and Re'eh there are four animals mentioned that have one of the simanei kashrus, but not the other. either they chew their cud, and don't have split hooves, or they have split hooves, but don't chew the cud. They are the Gamal,(camel) arneves (hare)shafan (hyrax - according to trans. of Living Torah by Kaplan)and chazir (pig).

Up till this present day, no other animals with either one sign or the other- but not both- have been discovered!

*Sigh*

Firstly, this isn't proof that the Torah was written by HaShem, merely an argument in the hypothesis's favor.

Secondly, the "four animals" proof is just as shaky as the Kuzari proof. First, you have to translate ma'ale geirah. It clearly doesn't mean "ruminant" in the classic sense (as in a cow), as the hare and hyrax do not ruminate. If you expand the definition of ma'ale geirah to incluce animals that engage in ruminant-like behavior, then there are many other animals that fit that category that do not have split hooves. Kangaroos are an example.

In addition, the llama and vicuna ruminate but do not have split hooves.

Tammy

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:32 pm

Quote:

two things Tammy:

1) Could you picture 'selling the Brooklyn Bridge" to an entire nation? Maybe one or two or ten or twelve people can be hypntised or brainwashed into believing something, but not an entire nation.

But supposing that you could sell it to a thousand people,
do you think it would endure in an unbroken chain for all the generations without change the way the Torah has?

2) the second example I brought, about the four animals with only one siman of kashrus, can serve as an independent proof to the first, that the Torah is G-d given and true, and there were 600,000 adult males .

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:35 pm

TammyTammy-

600,000 men by sinai meant that there was actually close to 1.5 - 2 million people there (adding women and children)

if there was only a few 1000 people there, the torah would not have been accepted. people looking at the torah would see that inflated number and say its just not true - what are you trying to pull?

in other words, a small number of people cannot claim that a large number of people saw something. it would not be accepted because it would be seen as straight out false.

thats the beauty of the argument - the proof is in the number.

is there any other myth youve seen with majorly inflated numbers? (seriously - im curious)

rosehill

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:36 pm

Proving that Hashem exists, and proving that He gave the Torah are two completely different issues. It sounds like this teen has yet to accept step one, so cannot accept step two.
I would explore with her further what exactly her doubts are, and why she's not sure.
Is it to do with the intelligent design vs evolution controversy?
Is it how can a benevolent G-d create a world with cancer and death and destruction?
Is it religion causes war?
When you have a better sense of what she's unsure of, we may be able to help you tailor a better answer.

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:48 pm

Quote:

Sigh

what is that supposed to mean? Confused

Quote:

Firstly, this isn't proof that the Torah was written by HaShem, merely an argument in the hypothesis's favor.

no, it's something that no human being could have dared to write, because one can never be sure of what will be discovered. And if someone would have been reckless enough to assert such a statement, in the course of the ensuing millenia, he would have been proven wrong, and unmasked.

The only One who could make that statement without fear of refutation is the Creator of heaven and earth. The fact that despite all the discoveries, and advancments that HAVE been made, there weren't any other such creatures discovered in the thousands of years since,proves that indeed it is He who made the statement.

Quote:

Secondly, the "four animals" proof is just as shaky as the Kuzari proof. First, you have to translate ma'ale geirah. It clearly doesn't mean "ruminant" in the classic sense (as in a cow), as the hare and hyrax do not ruminate. If you expand the definition of ma'ale geirah to incluce animals that engage in ruminant-like behavior, then there are many other animals that fit that category that do not have split hooves. Kangaroos are an example.

In addition, the llama and vicuna ruminate but do not have split hooves.

Tammy

Why do you have to translate it? In the original Hebrew it's clear enough what it means. If you want to get picky, and differentiate between actual rumination and ruminant like behaviour, you will be relieved to know that other animals that display this kind of behavior, are just variations of the four. a llama for example is a type of camel, not another distinct species.