Best way to answer a teen about H's existence?

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:49 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

So let's say five thousand people got together and concocted the story of Matan Torah (the giving of the Torah). Is it possible that after creating the story themselves they decided to include restrictions like only eating certain types of food, not doing any melacha on Shabbos and not touching their wives part of the month??? shock

Other cultures have stranger customs and taboos. Are you prepared to accept them as divine? Some leaders have even inspired mass suicide. Were their instructions divine?

Obviously not. The fact that we abstain from work one day a week, from relations two weeks out of a month and have other rituals that would otherwise seem odd and strange does not prove that said rituals are divine.

Tammy

Hi Abe!

Hi!

Did you know that you stood at Mount Sinai last year and heard G-d speak to you?

No, can't say I do.

Well, you did. Remember?

No, I don't remember as it happens.

OK, so you don't remember, but you did.

Oh OK (trying to get rid of him) I was there.

Great. I'm glad you remember.

OK, so now go home and don't touch your wife for the next week.

Ha ha.

Seriously, groups of people do have customs, taboos and rituals that aren't divinely inspired. It's entirely possible that the Jews could have had said customs, taboos and rituals already for whatever reason and then later on ascribed them to God at Mt. Sinai.

Tammy

So if it's so simple to make up a story of 2 million people at Har Sinai, if I wanted to start a new religion I would go that way instead of just saying G-d appeared to me.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:50 pm

shalhevet wrote:

or:

Hi Abe!

Hi!

Just wanted to remind you that your ancestors were at Matan Torah 50/100/1000 years ago.

Matan what?

Matan Torah, you know, when G-d spoke to your father/ grandfather/ ancestor.

Don't believe you.

Well, of course He did.

So, if He did, why have I never heard anything about it before. Well maybe he forgot to tell me.

Oh and by the way, there were another 2 million people there.

Like who?

Like all your family's ancestors.

But no-one has ever told me about it until now. And I just checked out and no-one else in the world has ever heard of it until now.

So, I'm telling you. And, by the way, you better run off now and put on these black boxes. And make sure you do every day.

Shalhevet,

This is all very amusing, and I'm sure you have great talent at comedy writing. But the fact of the matter remains that people have been convinced to believe much weirder things than Matan Torah. You're assuming that everyone always thinks rationally -- but that's hardly the case. There's ample evidence from history that groups of people can be made to believe and accept things that are far from true and to accept practices that are strange and bizarre.

The fact that we put on Tefillin, or keep Shabbos or any of the mitzvos is not proof that it was given by God- no matter how strange these rituals may seem absent the Sinai story.

Tammy

HindaRochel

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:50 pm

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

Nomad wrote:

would a group of a few thousand believe that a few generations ago a group of a few million got the torah? they would say - no this is bull and really impossible because we are only a few thousand.

That's no proof. What about each of the other religions having "proof" that their G-d is the true G-d, because of something that happened years ago. They ALL currently have many believers and followers, more than we do.

Of course it is. No other religion claims that 2-3 million people heard G-d speaking to them. They are all based on the claim of one person that G-d spoke to them.

So if I tell you that G-d spoke to me and told you to go clean out your house from every little crumb of chametz for a festival which starts next month, are you going to do it?

As I said before Shalhevet, I believe that trying to prove G-d exists is a fools errand; I also believe it is counter-productive.

It would depend on who was trying to convince who of what. Remember there are a whole lot of believers in yeshki and mohmed. So it did work
To answer your question, though not directed at me; I would not believe in the above given circumstance, that I would have to get rid of every leavened product IF I WERE AN ADULT AT THE TIME, however, if I were handed the tradition down from a parent, I would believe.

Quick summarization of the "THE VILLAGE " story: a group of people who have all lost loved ones to murder seclude themselves with their young and not yet born children. They live a life of simplicity, talk about their past in mythical terms, and create a type of creature that could kill or harm them if they aren't careful. The color red is banned as attracting these creatures, and the populace burys the "bad color" if it ocurrs naturally, say a flower. There is more to the story, including possible breakdown of the myth and how it is finally sustained but this is enough for my purposes.

Basically the story does go unchallenged by the townships second generation.

The problem that I see is in a "THE VILLAGE" type scenario is two fold a)gaining consensus of a large enough group that is self sustaining or able to capture the young of other nations, and sustaining those children long enough to produce a third generation, b)maintaing the illusion for long enough that the older population dies off without unmasking the fiction. It would require a very good reason to build this fictive past, and something a lot more necessary than accolades and honors. To not refer to the truth ever, except in mythological terms, that is, altered to fit the fictive version of events, to even have the right to execute a person who knows the law is not G-d given, or that person's child, would take a great deal of incentive. Possible, but to me highly improbable.

To summarize: to pass on the idea of a past of 6,000 it wouldn't take 6,000, just a group, as I said, large enough to sustain itself or capture the young of others, and who had a good enough reason to need this myth that the myth would be kept alive. By the time the oldest group died off the youngest would already have accepted the myth and passed it on to their children as an unbroken chain.

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:03 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

To summarize: to pass on the idea of a past of 6,000 it wouldn't take 6,000, just a group, as I said, large enough to sustain itself or capture the young of others, and who had a good enough reason to need this myth that the myth would be kept alive. By the time the oldest group died off the youngest would already have accepted the myth and passed it on to their children as an unbroken chain.

Now, what if this group was challenged by enemies, who attempted to erase them from the face of the earth. Could they continue to sustain their group and expand etc. ? Fact is that even mghty nations that once flourished have perished, nothing is left of their culture but ruins, but the Jews - kept by the Torah - have endured.

Jews who have been persecuted and targeted for anihilation in every generation have survived miraculously as a people, with the Torah intact. There is no better proof than this of the miraculous protection of G-d and the, Divine character of the Torah which has kept our nation.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:05 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

So if it's so simple to make up a story of 2 million people at Har Sinai, if I wanted to start a new religion I would go that way instead of just saying G-d appeared to me.

I don't know. Why do Christians maintain that YOSHKE turned water into wine and fed the masses with loaves and fishes in front of thousands when it would have been easier to claim it was done in front of dozens?

Tammy

Maybe he did? Who knows? There are plenty of instances of false prophets and people using kochot hatuma to do miracles.

What no-one else even claims is that Hashem appeared to 2 million people and spoke to them.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:25 pm

shalhevet wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

What no-one else even claims is that Hashem appeared to 2 million people and spoke to them.

Yes, but the claim itself is found... (let's say it all together, folks)... in the Torah. You can't use the document you are trying to prove as proof. That's a "because I said so" proof.

Tammy

So why do you think no-one else claims a similar story?

Maybe... just maybe... because there's no way to make it up and get people to believe it.

Or maybe because no one ever thought to do so. The fact that no one did so doesn't make it a proof. No one else but Homer thought of the judgement of Paris... but it's not true. No one but JK Rowling thought of Hogwarts, but I'm fairly certain that it's not tucked away somewhere on the island of Great Britian.

Tammy

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:31 pm

Shalhevet

yup - thats my point

many other religions: christianity, islam, greek and roman mythology...all have millions believing some pretty freaky stuff
...but in all those situations what the religions claimed was that something (miracles...) happened to 1, 12, or 1000 people. The word of these miracles then spread to other people who were not there. If I was not at a place were a miracle happened could I argue against it? I couldnt because I didnt witness it myself.
and that is exactly what happened. someone came by and said "hey did you hear what Yoshke did?? wow!"...people believed it because there was no way to refute it.

judaism is the only religion were an entire nation experienced a simultaneous miracle. this way no one could argue against it. if someone would come by later and try to claim this happened - it wouldnt fly...and the whole torah would not be accepted.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:36 pm

Nomad wrote:

Shalhevet

yup - thats my point

many other religions: christianity, islam, greek and roman mythology...all have millions believing some pretty freaky stuff
...but in all those situations what the religions claimed was that something (miracles...) happened to 1, 12, or 1000 people. The word of these miracles then spread to other people who were not there. If I was not at a place were a miracle happened could I argue against it? I couldnt because I didnt witness it myself.
and that is exactly what happened. someone came by and said "hey did you hear what YOSHKE did?? wow!"...people believed it because there was no way to refute it.

judaism is the only religion were an entire nation experienced a simultaneous miracle. this way no one could argue against it. if someone would come by later and try to claim this happened - it wouldnt fly...and the whole torah would not be accepted.

And I'll state it again -- you're taking as a given (the accuracy of the Torah) the very point you're trying to prove. You want to prove the Torah, so you say that there were millions of people at Sinai. But that fact is contained in the Torah -- and there is no external source for it. All you're back to is "The Torah is true because it says it is."

Tammy