Best way to answer a teen about H's existence?

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:47 pm

Nomad wrote:

the people who accepted the torah

Are you referring to the people at Sinai?

Tammy

greenfire

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:50 pm

wow - if I were a teen you would have lost me long ago ... in fact I think you all did ...

you are confusing religion with God - they are 2 separate issues ... and most likely someone who is questioning if Hashem exists might be able to follow rituals anyway ... or couldn't care less ...

how about looking at the world in it's magnitude of miracles ... from the leaves on a tree ... to the bug crawling ... to the colors of the rainbow ... the magnificent sunset ... the moon and the stars ... the fact that we could breath and see and walk and hear and think - without batteries ... Hashem is all around in everything we do !!!

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:50 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Nomad wrote:

the external source is the people who accepted it to be true.

How do you know anyone at the time accepted it to be true?

Tammy

Why don't you reread the whole thread, before we go around in circles? We didn't say that the Torah was given at Sinai because the Torah says so. We have already proved that Matan Torah is a historical fact, because there is no way you can invent history. And that no-one else has attempted to invent such a story, because it is impossible.

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:51 pm

it would apply to them, yes, but it doesnt have to necessarily refer to them

amother

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:52 pm

Listen, Tammytammy, Ms. Know-It-All, if you don't beleive that Hash-m gave us the Torah on Har Sinai, then why are you here to begin with? Why are you trying to spread your shmutz here? Either accept the fact that the Torah is true or else go away. Why are you trying to ruin people's emunah?

Really!

(Nomad and Shalhevet... give it to her)

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:54 pm

Nomad wrote:

it would apply to them, yes, but it doesnt have to necessarily refer to them

Please don't play games here. Who did you mean? Specifically. If you want me to respond to you, I have to know what you're stating.

Tammy

poelmamosh

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:55 pm

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....08386

Aside from the "classic" or is it called traditional) proof being argued here, there are other answers.

I agree with HR, there is a "leap of faith" that must occur at some point in life, but I think it is important that the OP's teenager recieve a clear, solid answer from her parent and see that it's all been addressed before in TORAH sources, and not have the need to CHV look elsewhere.
And greenfire, nice post.

Last edited by poelmamosh on Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:55 pm

naw - thats not nice amother

im not into giving it to people. I just like logical arguments

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 5:55 pm

shalhevet wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Nomad wrote:

the external source is the people who accepted it to be true.

How do you know anyone at the time accepted it to be true?

Tammy

Yes, you did say that. You said that Matan Torah was a historical fact because millions of people witnessed it. But how do you know millions of people witnessed it? Because it's written in the Torah. True, you didn't use the worlds "because I said so," but it amounts to the same thing... you're assuming the very premise that you are trying to prove.

Tammy

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 6:01 pm

I meant exactly what I said

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 6:03 pm

Quote:

You said that Matan Torah was a historical fact because millions of people witnessed it. But how do you know millions of people witnessed it? Because it's written in the Torah

change underlined to: Because it was accepted

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 6:04 pm

Nomad wrote:

I meant exactly what I said

Fine. Whatever.

The people at Sinai are not an external source. After all, how do you know that anyone at Sinai accepted the Torah? Because it's in the Torah.

Tammy

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 6:05 pm

Nomad wrote:

Quote:

You said that Matan Torah was a historical fact because millions of people witnessed it. But how do you know millions of people witnessed it? Because it's written in the Torah

change underlined to: Because it was accepted

But who accepted it? The people that were there? That's no proof because the only source for the acceptance of the Torah is the Torah itself.

Tammy

Mrs.Norris

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 6:48 pm

the answer about people accepting the Torah at Mount Sinai was given to me - it didn't answer my questions about G-d at all, it made me believe even less because the only answer they could find is 'well it says so in the Torah' and I would then go on to ask 'well what if the Torah is not true' and they would answer 'well, 600,000 people saw it so it must be true' which would make me ask 'well so the Torah says but there is no proof of that anywhere else, how do I know someone didn't make that up much later on?'. Basically, if someone is questioning the Torah giving them proof by saying 'well it says in the Torah ...' is just not going to get you anywhere.

There is no proof G-d exists, if there was then no one would be atheist and there would be a lot less free choice in the world and no one would ever do anything bad. Belief in G-d's existence is exactly that, it is a belief! You just have to have faith. But that is obviously not a great answer to give to a teen, but the book recommended is an excellent one.

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 07 2007, 2:24 am

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Nomad wrote:

the external source is the people who accepted it to be true.

How do you know anyone at the time accepted it to be true?

Tammy

I don't understand. Do you doubt for a minute that there was a Roman Empire; that the Magna Carta was signed; that Queen Elizabeth I reigned; that there was an Inquisition (fill in anything else no longer in living memory)?

Without a Torah to tell me I firmly believe that all these things happen. Why? Because people can't just invent history. You know what - I believe that J existed and that Mohamed told his disciples that he was a prophet and that he said G-d had spoken to him. Sorry, but your argument that history can be invented is ludicrous. (The only way would be the way that HR described). I can invent a story about my family and pass it down as fact to my children, but I can't invent the history of a people.

And even if it could be invented, no-one would be prepared to swallow a story that involved changing their whole lives around.

BTW, you mentioned earlier that other religions didn't invent such a story because they just didn't think of it. But afterwards I thought of something else - they came after Judaism so they didn't have to think of it - the story was already there; so why didn't they concoct a similar story??? Because they couldn't.

BTW, to those who said Hashem's existence could be proved from creation; it is very strong circumstantial evidence, but Hashem Himself only expects us to believe in Him because of the miracles of going out of Egypt which can be passed on from one generation to the next. There's a Ramban on this where he explains why we have so many mitzvos to remember the going out of Egypt.

TammyTammy

Tue, Aug 07 2007, 10:09 am

shalhevet wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Nomad wrote:

the external source is the people who accepted it to be true.

How do you know anyone at the time accepted it to be true?

Tammy

No, of course I don't doubt it. But that's because there is far more external evidence that the Magna Carta was signed in 1215, that the Roman Empire existed, that the Inquisition happened and that Queen Elizabeth reigned than one book simply saying it was so. However, for the claim that there were 600K men at Sinai, there is NO external evidence outside of the Torah.

And again, I want to stress, (especially for the amother above), I DO believe in Sinai and Torah Min HaShamayim. But the Kuzari proof does not stand up to logical scrutiny. Saying I don't believe in the proof does not equal saying that I don't believe in the Torah.

Quote:

Without a Torah to tell me I firmly believe that all these things happen. Why? Because people can't just invent history.

You know what - I believe that J existed and that Mohamed told his disciples that he was a prophet and that he said G-d had spoken to him. Sorry, but your argument that history can be invented is ludicrous. (The only way would be the way that HR described). I can invent a story about my family and pass it down as fact to my children, but I can't invent the history of a people.

Of course history can be invented. Do you believe that the early Sumerian kings ruled for tens of thousands of years? Well, the Sumerians did.. they are in the list of their kings. Alulim ruled 28800 years, Alagar ruled 36000 years and En-Men-Lu-Ana ruled 43200 years. Much of their early history as a nation is invented.

Homer invented history by the boatload in the Ilium and the Odyssey. Ovid and Hesiod helped out as well. While there probably was a Trojan War, almost certainly all the details contained in the works cited above are fiction.

Quote:

And even if it could be invented, no-one would be prepared to swallow a story that involved changing their whole lives around.

There a lot of history to disprove this notion. People accepted stories that led to the foundings of just about every major world religion. People accepted stories that led to human sacrifice, war and unspeakable horrors. Of course people will accept stories that change their lives around.

You're making the fundamental error that the masses are always clear-thinking and rational. As a matter of fact, I'd posit that the opposite is true... that the masses are *rarely* clear-thinking and rational in what they choose to accept and that, under the right circumstances, can be persuaded (especially by a charismatic leader) to accept things that, if they sat down and thought about it for an hour, would find absolutely bizarre.

Quote:

BTW, you mentioned earlier that other religions didn't invent such a story because they just didn't think of it. But afterwards I thought of something else - they came after Judaism so they didn't have to think of it - the story was already there; so why didn't they concoct a similar story??? Because they couldn't.

So what? The fact that no one else makes a claim does not verify the validity of your claim.

Tammy

greenfire

Tue, Aug 07 2007, 10:12 am

did you know that before we were people ... we were apes shock

HindaRochel

Tue, Aug 07 2007, 10:19 am

I think a lot of people here are misunderstanding Tammy. She is not arguing against the Torah, she is arguing against the idea that there is an uncontestable proof that Hashem exists and that we received Torah m'Sinai. And I happen to agree with her. She is correct; most proofs can be invalidated, which is why I think they shouldn't be begun. A wise child will in fact question the proofs which will simply lead to greater questions.

My feeling is it is best to simply tell a questioning child that we haven't any proof that G-d exists, that these and these are strong evidence for a creator, but there is, at least not yet, any absolute proof of Hashem's existence. This is where faith comes it.

It is internal, and many times people who believe in Hashem will question G-d.

There is also no real proof, despite detrators, that G-d doesn't exist. I know some of the supposed proofs, but I find logical faults with them as well.

HindaRochel

Tue, Aug 07 2007, 10:20 am

greenfire wrote:

did you know that before we were people ... we were apes shock

No scientist makes that claim The claim is that both apes and humans shared a common, now extinct, anscestor.

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 07 2007, 10:26 am

HindaRochel wrote:

The Torah disagrees with you. The pasuk says
וידעת היום והשבות אל לבבך כי ד' הוא א' בשמים ממעל...
And you shall KNOW today ... that Hashem is G-d in the heavens above and the earth beneath. There is no other.

We have an obligation to KNOW about G-d's existence, not just to believe.