Are Frum people less happy than non Frum?(threads merged)

amother

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 9:35 am

Observing some in our communities' need to pretend that we are or have what we're not, do not frum and non-Jews have less need to conform, because of acceptance by their communities regardless of conforming to certain requirements, and are therefore more relaxed, at peace with themselves and happy, or is there a certain percentage of unhappy people in all circles?

Another question, who do you think is truly happy, content (you never know for sure)? Haven't we all thought that couples were happily married, only to hear that they got divorced? Haven't we also thought certain people are truly religious and then found out they were transgressing major Aveiros?

IMO, I think that a major part of our pressure stems from the need "to do good Shidduchim", which even when people are young and still have small children, many are already thinking of the future- building up their wealth and circle of friends to impress people for that reason. I know that that is the case in my circles. Non-jews and non-frum have statusy groups too, but only a small percentage of money based marriages.

suomynona

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 9:57 am

Well I don't think it's the case in most circles.
Most people choose their community based on who they want to be so they don't have to pretend that they are who they are not.
I certainly wouldn't think that frum people are less happy than not frum. generally speaking, frum people have a much more stable family life, not to mention a more fulfilling life. I can't even imagine how non-frum people could be happier.
There are certain pressures such as needing money to marry off daughters, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that people with young children are building up their wealth and circle of friends for that reason.

whatever

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 9:59 am

me too. it has to do with a persons personallity. if a person isnt happy no matter what they do or have done for them they wont become happy. and then there are those that with nothing they are such happy people its unbelievable. and I have plenty of examples for both.

rainbow

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:08 am

".....do not frum and non-Jews have less need to conform, because of acceptance by their communities...."

Oh no! I've met my share of non-frum and even non-Jewish adults who struggle with these issues. Every society/group/sub-group has its standards and there is always the issue of accpetance, conformity vs. nonconformity.
Take for example a woman I met whose family wears this long piece of cloth, cover their hair and some even cover part of their face (I think it depends on the sub-group); she does not wear this long dress, she wears jeans and shirts and she has told me her family has disowned her. She feels alone, she wants her family's acceptance but is not willing to pay the price of conformity. And she is hurting.

Conformity comes in different shapes and sizes; for one it could be sending the daughter to sem in Israel, for another it's wearing the latest fashions, for another it's hiding mental illlness, for another it's having the kids attend certain schools, and for another it's being on b.c.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:12 am

I would hope that most ppl were happy where they were in a certain community or hashkafah or whatever you want to "label" it. as one of the above posters said, most ppl choose their community that they want to be in and so to be part of that community should actually make them happy.

I know that I chose the community that I am part of (and I am talking hashkafic community) because that is where I know that I belong and that I know HaShem meant for me to feel the most fulfilled (and I guess happy) in my yehadut.

songbliss

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:59 am

"eizeh hu ashir, hu besameach bechelko"

everyone who's happy with what they are, what they have, and who they are, are generally considered happy. it doesn't necessarily have to do with what a person keeps, believes in or follows.
but coming from a family with 2 parents who are baalei teshuvah, I know that there is a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment in being frum, and having a meaning to life. but it doesn't mean that becoming frum is the key to happiness. the key to happiness is you. Very Happy

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 3:55 pm

Ruchel wrote:

It must also be very hard to be a kollel wife!!

Having a hard or easy life is nothing to do with being fulfilled and happy. This is the modern Western World's Big Lie.

I'm sure you would never swap with me in a million years, Ruchel. I work hard, both at my job and in the house. I don't have help. My husband is in kolel from morning till after 11 at night (he comes home to eat and rest). We don't have money for expensive trips out or restaurants or holidays.

But do you know? I chose this lifestyle and I am very happy. Do you know why? Because I am fulfilled that I am using the life that Hashem gave me in the way He wants. I don't have any regrets. Life may not be easy but it is good. Baruch Hashem

Ruchel

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:00 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

It must also be very hard to be a kollel wife!!

Ok, so let's say: being a kollel wife is hard if you don't manage to deal with everything and if it's not an active choice but a given in your community.

Tehilla

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:27 pm

I have so many things to say to the thread title alone! I have been along the whole range of as far away from observant as you could possibly get, to what many consider ultra orthodox, although I just like to say observant. No way am I as a frum person less happy than non Frum, even when things have been pretty 'bad' in our lives, I would take those dark days any time over the best times when not frum.

You see, the non Frum are always searching for self-fulfillment to cover the emptiness. To find the next thrill, or excitement, or false sense of accomplishment to cover up a deep lack of true purpose and meaning in their lives that comes from following Torah. I know. I was there. Even a person who says they are fulfilled is lying to themselves, because true happiness only comes from Torah. Happiness in that way doesn't always mean that the bills are paid, or everything is jolly. It should be so for all yidden. The simple facts of the matter are the path often sought by the non frum is a self-satisfaction, whereas the journey for the frum person should be (we can all get distracted unfortunately) what can I do for others? What am I needed for (as the famous story from the Alter Rebbe goes)?

You see, I have found that I only feel truly fulfilled when I am giving and doing for others. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a glow of happiness on my DH, or DDs, or any yid's face especially when I can have a small slice in the reason for that glow.

amother

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:38 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Ok, so let's say: being a kollel wife is hard if you don't manage to deal with everything and if it's not an active choice but a given in your community.

Wo- u took the words out of my mouth! I see other women having been coaxed into it by Hanhallah and regretting it tremendously, and just putting on a good show, so as not to break up their homes. Even when these husands go to work, they make very little bec. by the time the husbands go to work they need the additional steady income badly and can't go to school to further their educations.

What a miserable life for some.

Ruchel

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:45 pm

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Ok, so let's say: being a kollel wife is hard if you don't manage to deal with everything and if it's not an active choice but a given in your community.

That's exactly what I meant. Young girls taught it's the only holy way, or that they won't get a good shidduch if they don't work! Girls marrying without knowing what it is and then stuck, because after all thew did promise to do it!

Some women are truly able to do it. But in modern communities or non frum, where almost all women work, they have 2, 3 maximum children! It's so different!

No one should commit to kollel wife life before knowing how it is to work and raise a large family and be pregnant and nursing and this and that... You need both a mental and physical strength that imho FEW have.

And what about those who have the koyech but just realize they wish another life? there is such a thread on Imamother JUST NOW.

greenfire

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 7:00 pm

"happiness is like a butterfly ... if you sit still it might just chance upon you"

we are all to busy chasing things we don't even know - just cause everyone else is ... sit back and enjoy what you have ... you might just be content ... we are all in the same world - struggling, emotionally, monetarily, - I pray for sustenance - physical, spiritual, and emotional ...

Mimisinger

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 7:30 pm

Tehilla, I'm glad that you find being frum such an amazing thing.

However, there are plenty of non-Jews, secular Jews, etc. that find life to be wonderful. And, yes, that's without the torah. That's why there are people who go off the derech who stay off the derech. And people who have seen what it is to be a Torah Jew and decided that they weren't interested.

It's a wonderful thing to say that a Torah life is the only fulfilled life, but that's just not true. People are happy and they are satisfied with their lives even though they don't follow mitzvos.

Tehilla

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:16 pm

Quote:

However, there are plenty of non-Jews, secular Jews, etc. that find life to be wonderful. And, yes, that's without the torah. That's why there are people who go off the derech who stay off the derech. And people who have seen what it is to be a Torah Jew and decided that they weren't interested.

if we only truly understood what we were missing, we would be running full speed and pounding down the doors.

whoami

Tue, Aug 14 2007, 12:33 pm

The grass is always greener on the other side.

It may seem to us that the non-frum jews are happier, that the wealthy are happier, that the working moms are happier, or the stay at hopme moms are happier etc.
Just keep in mind that not everything is what is seems, and no one really knows what goes on behind closed doors...

Tehilla

Tue, Aug 14 2007, 1:49 pm

Quote:

in case it wasn't clear, I meant missing in terms of the Torah. I have lived the secular lifestyle. and oh boy was it successful in their eyes. that's why I can say with full assurance that the Torah derech is the only real way. and you know what, Hashem tells me it's the right way. Hashem has always looked out for me, taken care of me so even when I don't "feel" overwhelmed with excitement I know I'm doing the right thing. The secular culture doesn't know what to do with themselves if they don't "feel" in love, or excited, or challenged. They need a constant high to cover over the void inside. Distractions to mask the lack of purpose. Because even during the dullest or most frustrating moments, I know I have a purpose! I know Hashem is there, and He's gonna keep that river flowing...