Charactor school bags.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 9:26 am

ok, thomas time (I'm done with fred rogers for now, I suppose)

I also grew up watching shining time station. (for those interested, I was allowed 2 hours of tv time a week. I was not brought up by a television Smile

)

1- any show touting Yoshke would not have ringo starr play the conductor. I don't think one of the beatles, even a former one, would have been a good christian role model.

2- if the show teaches the virtues of patience and communication, and possibly non-violent reactions to things that upset us, what could possibly be the problem? it doesn't even use the phrase "turn the other cheek."

3- we can learn something good from people of other religions. yes, even the muslims. if we all prayed as frequently and seriously as they do, we might be stronger. so if a show was based on the writings of a reverend, but do not preach specifically un- or anti-Jewish morals, I see no reason to call it a "Yushka show." If you see a christian dressed according to proper tznius standards, do we say they are dressed too christian for our children to see? they are displaying good values that agree with our own. the only christian thing I can identify in thomas the tank engine is his first name- that of a saint- but frankly I don't think that everyone named thomas is religious, and the other trains do not have saints' names.

narnia books are overtly religious. anyone with any knowledge of christianity knows that. avoiding those books on that basis is logical. I fail to see the logic in thomas as a christian parable. maybe it should be discussed openly to educate some of us?

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 11:58 am

aslan the lion is a god/messiah figure in the narnia books. he is expected to return to narnia at times and at some point there is a "false aslan" that causes trouble by ordering the inhabitants to do things they normally would not do. aslan mentions at some point that he has died, but come back to life. as a kid, the stories are just fantasy. as an adult, I was hit by the christian overtones. I haven't read all the books, but the ones that I have read are very obvious.

Ruchel

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:03 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

But for someone who is frum, how can it be worse than any fantasy world?

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:12 pm

GR wrote:

I didn't see anything on page 3 or any other page of the story that had to do with Christianity, except for that the guy who made it up being a Reverend.

And also that:

"In the Xmas of that year, the Rev. Awrdy made his son Christopher a simple wooden toy engine that was later christened Thomas."

Ok I never knew all this, and I never buy these things anyway, but why does it bother some of you so badly that some people would rather not take christian toys into their house??

gryp

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:27 pm

Quote:

"In the Xmas of that year, the Rev. Awrdy made his son Christopher a simple wooden toy engine that was later christened Thomas."

That's the subtle hints to Christianity? That the Reverend gave his son a present on Xmas? I don't see how any tumah can possibly be transferred through that kind of subtle hint.

Again, I don't buy it for the train, I don't buy it on something we use everyday. We use it once or twice a year and the train is covered anyway by a blanket.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:40 pm

ruchel--

they pray to aslan, swear in his name, etc. frum does not mean so sheltered that we don't see overt religiosity where it is. praying to a lion which is not really a lion and has special powers is not something we want our children to do. I have seen children pick up phrases or actions from fantasy books and repeat them. some imaginative children even believe fantasy books. personally, if my kids want to read narnia, I think I'd rather they read it when they already have a basic knowledge of the differences between christianity and judaism so they know what they are reading. though perhaps it would be better if they did not read them at all.

mrs. xyz-

christening a toy does not make it christian. boats are also christened. it just means that they name it with a ceremony. (I believe with a boat they smash a bottle of champagne on one of the walls.) if a little boy who is christian wants to christen his own personal toy, I see no reason not to give my child a similar toy. even if the kid calls it christening, you cannot convert a wooden toy to any religion. in my mind, a christian toy would be a nativity set, a talking Yoshke doll, or those bible trivia games. I wouldn't let my kids have santa claus dolls either, though santa claus as we know him today in america was invented by the coca cola company. jack-o-lanterns also have no religious significance, but I wouldn't let my kids have one because of the association with halloween, which is really a pagan holiday. thomas the tank engine is not associated with a religion just because the original toy was "christened" by its owner. I don't know where the whole christian thomas rumor started, but I'm seeing no factual backup here. if you don't want to give your child commercial icons to play with, that's fine. and I agree, thomas is a commercial icon.

mimivan

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:41 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

"In the Xmas of that year, the Rev. Awrdy made his son Christopher a simple wooden toy engine that was later christened Thomas."

You are probably right GR... as the anonymous amother said, if you feel okay about it, no reason to defend it...

Ruchel

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:49 pm

Quote:

they pray to aslan, swear in his name, etc. frum does not mean so sheltered that we don't see overt religiosity where it is.

No, I meant, if children already have strong beliefs, why would they adopt the beliefs of book or movie characters?

Quote:

praying to a lion which is not really a lion and has special powers is not something we want our children to do.

Why would they do it if they have been raised clearly Jewish (or any other belief by the way)?

Quote:

I have seen children pick up phrases or actions from fantasy books and repeat them.

That's just playing, as long as it's not about praying.

Quote:

some imaginative children even believe fantasy books.

That would need an explanation before handing the book. Any book.

gryp

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:54 pm

[quote="amother"]

GR wrote:

Quote:

Again, I don't buy it for the train, I don't buy it on something we use everyday. We use it once or twice a year and the train is covered anyway by a blanket.

I don't see the need for one to defend ones self if they see nothing wrong with buying it.

I agree, just wanted the record to be clear that I'm not for buying them under usual circumstances.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:57 pm

ruchel--

children of the age level narnia is meant for have not formed their own religious beliefs yet-- this is something that is often done as a teenager or later. they may have a strong religious background, but that is just what it is-- a background. why else would people be worried about their kids wearing cartoon character backpacks Smile

?

seriously, though, kids think for themselves more than we give them credit for. they incorporate what they read and see into their own thinking. why give them something like this to read? you don't ever know how strong any ADULT'S religious conviction is, let alone a child's.

Ruchel

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 1:10 pm

Quote:

children of the age level narnia is meant for have not formed their own religious beliefs yet-- this is something that is often done as a teenager or later.

I remember very clearly having very strong beliefs as a child. My mom told me I had formed most of my opinions when I reached bas mitzva.
What age is Narnia for? 10/12 or so, right? like Harry Potter.

Quote:

they may have a strong religious background, but that is just what it is-- a background. why else would people be worried about their kids wearing cartoon character backpacks?

I don't know. It is something I never encountered irl. My very frum great aunt takes care of her dd's toddler son all day, and he has tons of Bob the sponge stuff.

Quote:

seriously, though, kids think for themselves more than we give them credit for. they incorporate what they read and see into their own thinking.

Yes. Chinuch is there for teaching them fantasy books are just fantasy books.

Quote:

why give them something like this to read?

Because there aren't so many clean AND interesting books, unfortunately. And because if they ask to read it you must pick your battles.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 4:18 pm

Quote:
children of the age level narnia is meant for have not formed their own religious beliefs yet-- this is something that is often done as a teenager or later.

I remember very clearly having very strong beliefs as a child. My mom told me I had formed most of my opinions when I reached bas mitzva.
What age is Narnia for? 10/12 or so, right? like Harry Potter.

People's religious views are not the same at 12 as they are when they are 20. You may have had strong beliefs at 12, but most kids at that age are still doing things because they believe mom and dad, not because they have any religious understanding.

Quote:
seriously, though, kids think for themselves more than we give them credit for. they incorporate what they read and see into their own thinking.

Yes. Chinuch is there for teaching them fantasy books are just fantasy books.

But do they know that? reading teaches even if it is fantasy. Any well crafted fiction maintains an element of reality in it, otherwise no one would read it. EVERYTHING in a child's life teaches him something, even if it is something minute. to separate chinuch from secular things is rather impossible. and the child is the one who decides what to learn from where. So it is important that we as parents help them make those decisions. I'm not saying that you shouldn't allow your children to read Narnia books if you feel it appropriate. I just think that as a parent it is your responsibility to make sure the kid has the ability to differentiate between fact and fiction before they read such a book.

Quote:
why give them something like this to read?

Because there aren't so many clean AND interesting books, unfortunately. And because if they ask to read it you must pick your battles.

True. But at the same time you have to know your child well and there are some kids with whom this battle would be worth it.

Ruchel

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 4:49 pm

Quote:

People's religious views are not the same at 12 as they are when they are 20. You may have had strong beliefs at 12, but most kids at that age are still doing things because they believe mom and dad, not because they have any religious understanding.

Very possible, but as long as they believe something, they won't get trapped. A child raised "neutral", on contrary...

Quote:

I just think that as a parent it is your responsibility to make sure the kid has the ability to differentiate between fact and fiction before they read such a book.

I agree. But a good conversation is needed to help them understand what fiction is.

Quote:

But at the same time you have to know your child well and there are some kids with whom this battle would be worth it.

Yup. But then, what can you give them?

Mrs.Norris

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 5:08 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

I just think that as a parent it is your responsibility to make sure the kid has the ability to differentiate between fact and fiction before they read such a book.

For a kid to be clever enough to realise that Narnia is like Christianity they'd have to be quite a lot older than the age when someone knows the difference between fact and fiction. For example, I could separate fact and fiction from about the age of 7 but I didn't know anything about Christianity until I was about 14.