Tis the season...for forgiveness. Discussion abt forgiveness

singleagain

Mon, Aug 29 2016, 7:53 pm

A slight spinoff, from a different thread about forgiveness; that thread just got me thinking, about how forgiveness isn't easy or the same for everyone. And, of course, the "crimes" that need forgiveness, vary in "severity" from one person, for whom that action wouldn't even require an apology, to another person who cannot move on from said action. Additionally, there are the questions like: "can you forgive a person who doesn't apologize/doesn't think/are not aware they did anything wrong?" "can you forgive a person who is not sincere in their apology [ie those who send a mass 'do you forgive me if I hurt you' text or post]?" "do you have to tell them in person?" "what if the actions are something I/others perceive as unforgivable?"

All of this got me thinking, because, I believe I have been wronged a number of times, in the last three to five years, and possibly before. And I struggle with being able to forgive, certain people for certain things. And sometimes, I wonder, if people are unable to forgive me, and if I deserve their anger or not.

Two years ago, I visited "The Candles Holocaust Museum and Education Center" in Terra Haute, IN. It was founded by a woman named Eva Kor, and her twin sister, Miriam Mozes Zieger. Subjected to horrific experiments by the evil Nazi, Dr. Josef Mengele, not only did Eva and Miriam survive, but they prospered. And despite the horrors that Eva suffered, she was able to forgive Dr. Mengele, Eva is quoted as saying, "Anger is a seed for war. Forgiveness is a seed for Peace." Learn more @ http://www.candlesholocaustmuseum.org

Eva & The Candles Museum also have this statement to say about forgiveness, which I put into a graphic:

For those who have trouble seeing the graphic, the text reads as follows:

"What forgiveness means to us. Forgiveness means many things to many people. To adequately describe Eva Kor's journey and the ways survivors of trauma can heal themselves, we define it like this: To forgive is to renounce anger and resentment against those who caused you harm, without the expectation of apology or compensation. Forgiveness is not a pardon to those who have caused the injury, nor does it excuse the acts they used to cause it. These things are no longer the problem for the person who forgives. Forgiveness is the release of bitterness and indignation for our own personal healing. Forgiveness does not require forgetting. It only asks that we refuse to accept our pain as a part of ourselves. We are much more than our pain."

I try to keep this in mind for myself. But I wonder what other people out there think? Especially, as the season is coming up on us...

amother

Smokey

Mon, Aug 29 2016, 8:03 pm

Very interesting post. I think though that in the case of abuse it is ofyen harder to forgive because the relationship still exists. Meaning would those 2 sisters actually be able to forgive joseph mengela while they were his prisoners and he was doing horrible cruel things to them? I doubt it. So for a child that has abusive parents it is especially difficult to forgive because they are often still in each others lives. And if the victim cuts off the parent and claims to forgive , is that really forgiving?

amother

Orchid

Mon, Aug 29 2016, 8:13 pm

There were a couple of girls who treated teenage dd very badly in sleepaway camp. One of them called to ask mechilah that year before Rosh Hashanah. Dd had a very hard time with this. Because of the timing of the call, she had no idea if the girl was sincere. She also didn't feel ready to forgive.

And yet she had the yamim noraim approaching and felt guilty saying no, but she didn't feel she could say yes without meaning it. Years later when she went to therapy for some other issues, this came up in a very big way.

singleagain

Mon, Aug 29 2016, 8:41 pm

amother wrote:

I cannot answer such questions, though if you look at their website, forgiveness was not something Eva was able to find overnight. But as a point of interest, when Mengele was fleeing for his life, the Candles Museum offered him amnesty of some sort. Which I cannot pretend to comprehend, only to admire.

amother wrote:

There were a couple of girls who treated teenage dd very badly in sleepaway camp. One of them called to ask me childhood that year before Rosh Hashanah. Dd had a very hard time with this. Because of the timing of the call, she had no idea if the girl was sincere. She also didn't feel ready to forgive.

And yet she had the yamim noraim approaching and felt guilty saying no, but she didn't feel she could say yes without meaning it. Years later when she went to therapy for some other issues, this came up in a very big way.

I totally sympathize with your DD. 6 years ago, my ex-h walked out on my and our marriage, right before RH, and I remember asking everyone if it was okay that I did not forgive him, as it was still so raw. They all agreed that it was okay that I did not. 6 years later, he still has not asked me for forgiveness... so sometimes, I do not think I should... but then other times, I just want to be able to let it go.

I think it should be alright, and understood if someone was not able to forgive, even during this time of year, because too often, it sounds insincere, and if forced to forgive... well, that is not a sincere forgiveness, and why would you want a fake one? God knows that you were not really forgiven, and yet you do not, and therefore, you will not seek a real forgiveness.

I hope your DD is able to come to a point of being able to have some peace about this issue. Please, if you think it will help, share this thread, and these words from Eva with her. Just let her know, that she isn't the only one who felt forced to forgive.

amother

Burlywood

Mon, Aug 29 2016, 9:41 pm

How many times I wanted to really really forgive. But how many times will I forgive and then the other does the same silly thing to me again. I therefore came up with the idea of "I forgive you. But you must be careful never again to do this to anyone in the world. " I understand I have an issue with forgiving. This was the way for me to come out strong in the face of irresponsible people. I wouldn't even say abusive, because not everyone that irritates or harms me is abusive. Maybe careless, or whatever. If situations come up again and again then something more than a repeat forgiveness is shayech. It is then that I use this statement, and it truly helps. I stopped being people's punch board as a result. I never regretted using this tactic because it worked and never harmed anyone. People around me realized I'm a strong and good hearted human being that won't let herself be damaged any longer.

sourstix

Mon, Aug 29 2016, 10:24 pm

forgiveness takes time. time is a healer. the twins that are spoken about in the op. were abused. mengele abused them! I dont care if he wanted to do research. it was abuse. and for them to forgive is a sign of immense maturity and humility. I dont evne have enough words. thats what people that have gone through abuse need to do. but its all in the hands of the victim. by forgiving you are not emotional about the pain anymore. you are able to move on. and say this doesnt define me. or what they said or did doesnt define who I am. iam worth more. I deserve more. I am a lot more then what they say. or do. and you pick yourself up and find the next place to put your energy in. something that is positive and meaningful.

zaq

Mon, Aug 29 2016, 10:56 pm

One can forgive even if the offender is unremorseful, has not apologized, does not know or care that he did wrong, or is dead. Forgiveness is a function of the forgiver, not the offender. Some injured parties are unable or unwilling to forgive without receiving some sort of apology or restitution or at least acknowledgement of wrongdoing; some will not forgive even so, if they believe the expression of remorse to be insincere.

What matters--the only thing that matters--is how the offended or injured person feels about the deed. Society considers it unforgivable? The injured party has permission to disagree. Society says there has to be an apology? The injured party can waive her right to an apology--or not, as she sees fit.

Forgiveness does not let the offender off the hook. What it does is let the injured party off the hook of her own rancor and allows her to move forward unencumbered by old resentments. IOW, it allows her to heal--something she cannot truly do while she clutches her anger to her bosom.

Of course I speak of humans forgiving humans. When the offended party is the Divine, our tradition teaches that there can be no forgiveness before there is repentance.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 2:16 am

Somebody close to me failed me. Really really badly. At a crucial time. And continued to even after I explained it to her.

And I had to think about what I would do when it got to Rosh Hashanah, because I knew she would "apologise". Even though she claimed to "not understand" what she had done wrong.

And sure enough, the "non-apology" email arrived.

I had already decided that if Hashem had genuinely not given her the ability to understand, then it wasn't for me to prejudice His judgement of her. And if she truly WAS the self-centered b*tch I suspected, He would judge her accordingly anyway.

So I left it to Him. Told her she was forgiven halachically. And left it up to Hashem.

(Subsequent actions on her part confirmed the self-centered b*tch diagnosis, in case you're wondering...and if you subsequently joined Imamother, "L", yes it's you...)

amother

Rose

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 8:24 am

Someone wronged me many years ago, and every rosh hashana I really tried to forgive her. But it never happened. Then last year I messaged her (we aren't friends nor do I ever see her) saying that I really want to forgive her but still so many years later I haven't been able to. She responded that she totally understands and she isn't the person she was many years ago and she is truly sorry, what she did was so wrong etc. I was able to thank her for her response and completely forgive her. Now I don't have any negative feelings when I think of her or that time.

Sometimes just reaching out to people and telling them you're having a hard time forgiving them, can start the forgiving process as their response will be exactly what you need.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 8:37 am

I cannot fathom forgiving Mengele. I can understand getting to a point where one accepts that whatever one underwent was the ratzon Hashem but his crimes were just too big to forgive. I can't see having the compassion and understanding necessary. Let go? Yes. Forgive? No.

ETA: I look this over. What I wrote sounds like, forgiving him requires a compassion and understanding I'm too weak to have and I really didn't mean that at all. What I meant was, forgiving someone requires compassion and understanding. I do not think that this is what is expected of us in trying to process Mengele ym"sh. It is very possible it's not even appropriate.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Sep 06 2016, 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total

zaq

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 1:54 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I don't believe that one has the power or permission to "forgive" a person for having harmed someone else. Forgiveness is up to the injured party. You might forgive your abuser for the anguish he caused you, but you can't "forgive" him for the anguish he caused someone else. That forgiveness is not yours to give.

Don't confuse forgiveness with absolution. Forgiveness is of, by and for the injured party. It means " I'm moving on, I'm no longer holding hatred for you in my heart or looking to make you pay for what you did." It does NOT mean "I view you as someone who never did anything wrong." Absolution means making the sin as if it had never been...the slate is wiped clean, the red thread turns white, the sin never happened. Only G-d, not human beings, can grant absolution.

amother

Jade

Tue, Sep 06 2016, 2:36 pm

// She responded that she totally understands and she isn't the person she was many years ago and she is truly sorry, what she did was so wrong etc. I was able to thank her for her response and completely forgive her. Now I don't have any negative feelings when I think of her or that time. //

I'm not the OP but wanted to thank you so very much for sharing this. On the deathbed, a close relative apologized for something done that was very damaging to me and passed away a few weeks later. I have been struggling with this so much. And you have offered another way for me to see this and perhaps begin to accept the apology and move on a bit. Thank you. Your story has been of great help and comfort to me.

amother

Violet

Wed, Sep 07 2016, 12:16 pm

I don't forget, and I don't forgive . I've posted about my abusive family , and they refuse to acknowledge that they've done wrong, nor do they change, even after therapy w them.
For example, My teenage dd just told me that on a recent overnight stay at my parent's house, (dh and I weren't there) my father smacked her behind bec he thought she woke up too late.
My mother tries to make up for her emotional neglect by giving us money, but it doesn't help since she still behaves the same way she always did, gaslighting me, excusing my father's abuse, blaming me , etc.
My feeling is, if u don't recognize what you did, and keep on hurting me, I won't forgive you.