How to run an Orthodox home?

shalhevet

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 8:42 am

songbliss wrote:

6. for benching after bread there is a short bracha 'b'rich rachamonah...'

This basically says thank You for the food, in Aramaic.

We said with little children 'Todah Hashem al ha'ochel' so they would understand, and it is considered an after bracha according to Torah law. You could say it in English too - Thank you Hashem for the food.
Ask your rav what is preferable (that or the brich rachamonah).

Once they are about 2 you can start saying the first line or two of birchat hamazon with them and gradually build it up.

songbliss

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 10:46 am

TammyTammy did interoperate what I said correctly.

listen, in today's world... even the best behaved kids will still at least think of these things. if they don't its because they don't know about it.
personally I was a gr8 kid with tonz of respect and rebellion was the last thing on my mind... but it happened... and its normal.

the main thing for teen's is to accept that they are going through a stage, and to help them through it... not to be too harsh on them, but still set what you want in a clear and precise manner, but to let them know that you understand them, and that they can talk to you about anything.

and hey.. I do know what I am talking about... I am still a teen myself, even if I do have 2 kids LOL

yes and b''h for those parents, & Kol Hakavod to you who have amazing teens who come home and teach you the Halachos. You have obviously done a gr8 job!!

but sometimes... its where you live, who your kids go to school with... and lastly, its what G-d wants your child's trials and tribulations to be... sometimes you are doing your best and things get out of control and you feel like a bad parent... but its all Hashem, and that is the one you have to trust in...

This is a main thing my mother instilled in all of us even though she was a BT, faith in Hashem goes a long long way... and through all the hard times in my life that has been what's gotten me through it all!!

Motek, there are plenty of families who are pretty uptight when it comes to the "outside world" and that could be the reason why kids would come home doing these things. What I think is a cause for worry is when a kid is CRAZY for movies, or CRAZY for music. Personally I think its about balance. Fine... you watch movies, but I don't need to hear about this actor and that singer, and I certainly don't need my kids to go mental about movies & put posters up about them etc... that is when it already goes to the extent of Avodah Zara...

But.... on the other hand...
sometimes when some things are allowed, things which are for sure worse seem lessened... eg...
a parent doesn't let the kid listen to non jewish music, watch movies etc... so for the kid his stage of rebellion is listening to non jewish music & watching movies...
on the other hand, a parent that allows these things could have a case where b/c this is nothing to rebel against the kid could decide to rebel by going to bars and going out with girls/boys...

nothing will for sure happen, and nothing will for sure not happen. the main thing is to be prepared for the worst, hope for the best, and cross the bridge when you get there Very Happy

TzenaRena

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 11:45 am

shalhevet wrote:

Could be, but b'rich rachmanah is found in the siddur, and a nusach that probably originates with chazal, so I'd rather say that than a home-made nusach. Of course you could explain, that it means we thank Hashem for the food.

Quote:

Once they are about 2 you can start saying the first line or two of birchat hamazon with them and gradually build it up.

Although this is what most people do, especially pre-school teachers, I wonder if that's preferred. ( I never actually asked yet, but have been meaning to.) Because in Brich Rachmanah you have the equivalent of a complete brochoh, whereas in saying one or two lines, you have just an inyan in chinuch, but not an actual brocha.

I learned that you may say Hashem's name when helping/teaching a child to make a brocha he's m'chuyav in, but not when you are stam teaching him how to make that brocha. ie. when saying a borei minei mezonos on a cookie, you could say Hashem's name if the child is going to now eat a cookie. But not if you are reviewing the brocha on say, neiros Chanukah not at actual lighting time and it's only an inyan in chinuch.

So if the child is bensching, but not saying the whole brocho it seems to me that it would be a question whether one can say it with Hashem's name along with him. And I'd rather know that my child made an actual brocha achronah (or equivalent).

TzenaRena

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 2:20 pm

GR, they may teach it, but the kids rarely can say every word of it, even when they do they kind of mumble jumble it, get the words wrong. I wonder about the "validity" of such a brocha (as a brocha, chinuch for sure it is but that's not the issue here).

I actually heard that one veteran melamed insists that the children should not sing the davening by heart, but as they learn to read, should read the birchos hashachar etc. without song from the siddur so that they learn to daven each word accurately instead of repeating the mistakes from what they sang by ear, over their preschool life. (although without doubt Shema is recited before the child can read, and of course Modeh Ani and Torah Tzivah.) I would venture to say that could aply to benching.

Sure they could learn everything by heart through song, but the words definitely get very mixed up.

(halacha l'maaseh, I think it might be something to ask a Rav. I also have a question about saying "al ntilas yadayim" b'shem umalchus after Modeh Ani in school, if no actual hand washing has taken place at that moment.)

shalhevet

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 3:21 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

The reason it's in Aramaic is because that was the language spoken at the time of the gemorra, so that people could understand it. I still think it's preferable to say something the child can understand (while they are too small to say any of the actual birchas hamazon - I am talking about a year and up maybe). There are other examples of declarations that need to be understood that were originally in Aramaic and now should be said in a language the person understands (such as eruv tavshilin and kol chamira).

Again, (the line that you didn't quote Wink

) was that everyone should ask their own rav.

[quote]

Quote:

Once they are about 2 you can start saying the first line or two of birchat hamazon with them and gradually build it up.

Quote:

But we're teaching them to bensch for chinuch and not for them to fulfil a halachic obligation. A line or two of the first brocho (say up to 'chasdo') is quite enough for a 2 year old, IMHO.
Why couldn't you say the brocho? It's still 'in real time' even if it's not complete. Just like other mitzvos that we gradually build up.

shalhevet

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 3:27 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

(halacha l'maaseh, I think it might be something to ask a Rav. I also have a question about saying "al ntilas yadayim" b'shem umalchus after Modeh Ani in school, if no actual hand washing has taken place at that moment.)

The halacha is that the reason you wash hands with a brocho is as a preparation for tefilla. I was told (everyone ask your own rav) that it is better to say al netilas yadaim only when I am going to daven, and not with the first negel vasser in the morning.

It is the same principle that today we don't say 'malbish arumim' after getting dressed, 'pokeach ivrim' after opening our eyes, 'sheasani kol tzorchi' after putting on shoes - although that's what they did at the time of the SA. Over time the minhag has become to say all the birchos hashachar (morning brochos) together, even though the action took place earlier.

gryp

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 6:03 pm

Tzena, the kids pick it up as they sing it each day. How else are they supposed to learn it?
I also know a teacher who doesn't sing davening or benching, expects the kids to read it inside with no mistakes- and while that's nice because they learn it properly from the start, personally I don't want my child to not be benching until he learns how to read perfectly.
And older kids make mistakes too, even adults many times. Confused

Maybe it's better to say "Brich" with preschoolers and then sing the first paragraph without Hashem's name?
Or maybe to say a little but and then to skip to the last part of the bracha, Baruch Atah Hashem Hazan Es Hakol.

I honestly have no idea why they say the bracha "Al netilas yadayim" in school without washing. I guess for the same reason- so the kids who aren't taught it at home will learn it, and they assume all the kids were already washed in the morning. I used to say it with my not-frum kids in camp, but I washed them all first.

Motek

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 8:15 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

I agree with you that in a home where these things are encouraged there is cause for worry.

you probably meant "not encouraged"

Quote:

But, nonetheless, it is pretty well established that teens rebel

Not impressed by the "pretty well established." Maybe we (society) have to examine how we are mechanech our children if many find this to be a problem. Maybe there is something to learn from those who don't experience it, or experience it in positive forms (as in hadasa's post).

shalhevet - would you think that in homes in which English is the spoken language, the children should say, "Thank you Hashem for the food" and the other brachos should be said English too?

TammyTammy

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 9:28 pm

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

I agree with you that in a home where these things are encouraged there is cause for worry.

you probably meant "not encouraged"

No, I meant encouraged. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Of all of the items on that list, the only one that I would even allow my kids to do is listening to music (and then, only music that I approve of), and even then, I don't encourage it.

Quote:

But, nonetheless, it is pretty well established that teens rebel

Sorry, but it is well established. All kids do it, from early childhood until their late teens. They test their boundaries, they search for their own identity and they sometimes do things counter to what you want. If you had a kid who *didn't* do that, I would think that it is a cause for worry.

Maybe your kids are malachim... but mine aren't... nor are the kids of anyone I know, from the most chareidi to the non-Jewish.

Tammy

hadassah

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 6:18 pm

Ruchel is so right...

But part of teaching your children is being an example and that's not easy, not for BT, not for FFB's not for anyone.

Until I had children I would say a very perfunctory davening in the morning. More like Shma and that's that. After all women can get away with it, so I was taught...but when my oldest daughter was born davening was "my time"...even more than "my time with hashem"...and I would daven next to her crib and then next to her playpen and she would know by a certain stage, somewhere around a year, that when I faced a certain direction and had my feet together there was NOTHING (almost) that she could do that would get me to stop and come over to her as I would in the earlier parts of davening if necessary...yes, I started saying the whole thing...korbanot and everything...it was the time I was "Hadassah" and not just "mommy"...and then when she would be able to stand up in her playpen at about a year and two months she would begin to immitate me davening and when I would say "shma" she would also cover her eyes and when I would daven shmone esre she would stand at attention...it was a sight to see...I remember my mother coming over once and saying "I don't believe this, the kid is davening shmone esre" and there she was shukeling away (I don't shukel at all, don't know where she got that one from, guess is is natural) holding a toy in front of her like a siddur.

What I mean to say is that example and doing with is the best teaching for a child...all the lovely things that were listed are so good...but also so is having your child see you do things...because none of us can be sure what our child will do...my girls who are out of school already and older don't daven every day, at least not a "real" davening, but once I asked one of them why and she said, "wait until I become a mother, then I will go back to it so that my children will see their mother daven just as I still see you do it every morning".

So example still sometimes has its virtues...