Am I a bad mom? | Imamother

Mama Bear

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 8:34 pm

My son is quite challenging KEh cuz he's so smart. He refuses to play without me. That's a huge problem especially now when we are so busy with cooking and housework. he cries bitter tears if I sit him down with crayons and a coloring book while I cook. I sit him out on the porch to play with toys etc, and he cries I should come out. I spend every day reading books with him, KE"H you should hear him tell the stories on the pages! today he saw a page of a mother snoozing on the couch friday night and he said, "Mama hut nisht koyach!" I was cracking up. Whenever I think of sending him to a part time playgropu my heart begins breaking. I can't imagine some other morah, or Rebbe, enjoying or even appreciating his cuteness or genius a fraction of what I do. I can't imagine him lost among 20 other kids. On the flipside, he is a huge bully and pushes and manhandles other kids, so it would be a terrible idea to even send him away. I am panicking at the thought of IYH if and when I get pregnant, what I'll do with him during my doctors' appointments, if he is such a bully with other kids. that would be the only reason I'd have to entertain the idea of playgroup or early cheder - if I'll have constant doctors appointments. So far, I'd rather have him watch Uncle Moishe for an hour or two a day when I HAVE to get things done, rather than him being out of the house every day for five hours. To me, he's still such a little baby!!! Believe me, he is very active, rambunctious and challenging. And he wants to jsut play with me all day. Still my heart breaks at the thought of ALREADY sending him out - he'll IYH be out of my house HIS ENTIRE LIFE, EVERY DAY, since boys have cheder on Sundays and Isru Chag and Erev Yom tov and taaneisim etc etc.! and he'll IYh go to shul on shabbos - what in the world is my rush to have him be away from his mommy already???!!!

mimivan

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 10:49 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Motek wrote:

mimivan - sounds like the kibbutz mentality and we know that that cruel experiment was a disaster

Dunnoo.....maybe more ppl would have bigger families if they didn't have to actually raise their kids & finance them. Something to think about.

Motek:
The "kibbutz Mentality" was what I thought exactly when this was happening. It turned out that I found no gan for my son and started him in cheder...it didn't work out.

My sons problems have nothing to do with the fact that I sent him to gan for a few brief months or kept him home for nearly a year between 2 and 3. The issue, at 4 is he needs special care, (he's special needs) and that I cannot provide all of at home.

I understand you ladies in America who think all children should be home 247 until the age of 3 or 4. But with boys, chinuch begins and 3 and they should be in cheder. Is it a big crime for a boy to be in a year early at 2 rather than 3? Some boys are ready, some are not.

I went to a chinuch class and the rebbetzin said a big problem immigrants to Eretz Yisroel make is that they do not want to accept the culture here. They want to do everything their own way and their children pay the price. For instance, nosh is big here in E.Y (I know you are going to love that GR)... I never wanted to give my kid nosh. The rebbetzin said, "Isn't it enough you live in a non-religious neighborhood where this is not kosher and that is not kosher? Do you have to single him out and leave him out of nosh at parties because you don't want to give him nosh"

The same thing applied to my wanting to keep him at home longer than the other mothers. By the time he finally did go, the other kids didn't know who he was. If I were to keep him home and send him on playdates, no other kids would be able to make playdates with him because they are busy at gan?

So Motek, maybe there is a bit of the kibbutz mentality behind this compulsive "ganning" here in E.Y. (the haredim do it too), but at the same time, the child picks up the chesbon for non-conformity, well-intended or not...

However, a few of my friends who do not work keep their daughters home until 3 because they do not want to send their girls to a mixed gan for 2 year olds. I think this is sound logic, especially because at that age, there is toilet training, curiosity about the body etc...

We plan all kinds of things before we have kids, and after we have had them, we want to think we know a whole lot. However, every child has just one mother, and she knows him or her best...

The longer I am a mother (haven't been for that long) the more I am convinced that advice is always welcome as long as it polite and well-intentioned, but utlimately, the inner maternal voice that speaks for my own child knows best...

ILOVELIFE

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 1:09 am

raizy wrote:

every rule I made before I had kids was broken one time or onther.

I couldn't have said this better.

Especially when I was going through IF, I promised myself that my kid wld stay home till she was 3.5/4.........

Well, whadddya know?! I began to see that my child was bored of just playing with me and watching me and taking walks with me-- she loved being at my friends house where there is a toddler and another baby... she loves kids her age and plays with them...in the summer, she ran out and played with the other children in the colony and was in la la land. I put my own feelings aside and gave my DD s/thing that at this point I can't provide her with-- other children to play with. She is B"H loving every minute in her non-pressuring, fun and warm playgroup. I did a huge amount of research and am happy I did. I am now comfy leaving her there knowing everything I know and most of all, having her say when I come to pick her up "No go home!!! Wanna stay with toys....."

suomynona

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 6:31 am

GR wrote:

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Yes, the child really needs the entertainment and social life that sitting at home with his mother can't provide for him. My mother didn't send her kids to school before they were 4 years old, but they were content to sit on the floor and watch her sew a skirt. My son is not.

My kids stay home until 3 yrs old, but they don't sit and watch me do anything all day. If I'm doing laundry, they help me with the laundry. If I'm eating a snack, they share my snack. If I'm washing dishes, they bring a toy into the kitchen.
...

I would like to quote something from the bunkbed thread

Yael wrote:

I do not trust my boys enough to let them have bunkbeds yet, my boys are very energetic and never stop moving, they also happen to be somewhat accident prone.
GR, your kids sound a lot more quiet and relaxed, so perhaps they would be fine on bunkbeds.
I'm sure you knows what youre doing.

GR, you spent a lot of time on that thread pointing out that you know your children and can make decisions based on that. Please give us the same courtesy. My mother who raised 7 children (and had a daycare at home for last 8 years) cannot always give me advice for dealing with my son, since all her children were calm and quiet. (Ex. when I mentioned how hard it is for me to lift my son while pregnant, my mother doesn't understand why I would ever need to lift a child that age. I have to explain to her that my son runs away from me out of the park and I have to run after him and carry him back to his stroller). My mother in law, otoh, understands perfectly. She'll tell me about how she had to prepare the drinks the night before because she had to be on the way out the park right away in the morning with the kids.
Until recently I never heard of a SAHM who sent her kids to a babysitter periodically. When I did hear about it, I was very judgemental. My husband told me, how can someone do errands with the kids? Now that my son grabs everything off the shelves in the stores, I understand. My siblings probably sat nicely in the shopping cart for an hour, and that's why my mother never had to send them out.

gryp

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 10:15 am

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I can't imagine some other morah, or Rebbe, enjoying or even appreciating his cuteness or genius a fraction of what I do. I can't imagine him lost among 20 other kids.

I agree with you MamaBear. Which is why I make sure that my older son's teachers last year and this year don't regard him as "just another kid" and why I pulled him out of camp in the summer after 3 days when I saw he wasn't being taken care of as an individual, for himself, for who he was. B"H, he's very cute and also different from other boys and the teachers give him special attention.

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And he wants to jsut play with me all day.

My kids had stages like that. It felt like it lasted forever but now I barely remembered that they did that until you mentioned it. Confused

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what in the world is my rush to have him be away from his mommy already???!!!

That's right. If he doesn't spend time with me now and gain that sense of security, he won't have a chance later. They have so many years of school ahead of them, why start at such a young age?

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But with boys, chinuch begins and 3 and they should be in cheder.

Mimivan, I agree with this part.
Except my son is 4 now and he still is not ready socially to be in a classroom. I sent him at 3 anyway hoping he'll get a hang of the social manners not innate in him. It was a long tough year last year for all of us and he's come very far but he still is not quite there yet.
Which is why I don't agree with sending them to playgroup once they're socially ready, because some kids never will be.
Now, if, last year I saw my son was not being taken care of properly in school, I definitely would have kept him home until 4 when he could take care of himself better. I'm talking specifically about supervision in the school bathrooms, being helped in the bathroom, and having his other physical needs taken care of- if he wants more of lunch or snack, if someone keeps bullying him, etc.

Compare that with my 25 month old- toilet-trained, been talking since 15 months- no exaggeration. his social skills are excellent, he is a brilliant master of communication.
He begs me every morning to take him to Yeshiva where there is a class for him and the teacher is great, I trust her with my kids. School is free. Do I send him? I debated for a few days and decided NO. He needs this time to be home with me. I need to teach him "life skills" geared to his age and intellectual capability before sending him off. He will be in school for the next two decades IYH once he turns 3 (next year).

I have heard numerous times that the first 3 years of a child's life stay with him forever. The first 3 years of my children's lives, IYH Please Hashem, they will be home with me where I know exactly what they are doing at all times, I know what they are absorbing and how they are being influenced.

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Is it a big crime for a boy to be in a year early at 2 rather than 3?

It is missing out a vital year of "Mommy-time," and that can never be made up later.

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I went to a chinuch class and the rebbetzin said a big problem immigrants to Eretz Yisroel make is that they do not want to accept the culture here. They want to do everything their own way and their children pay the price. For instance, nosh is big here in E.Y (I know you are going to love that GR)... I never wanted to give my kid nosh. The rebbetzin said, "Isn't it enough you live in a non-religious neighborhood where this is not kosher and that is not kosher? Do you have to single him out and leave him out of nosh at parties because you don't want to give him nosh"

Allow me to comment, all respect due to the Rebbetzin. (Do I know her?)
Yes, anywhere you live, if you don't accept the culture, it can cause problems. To apply that to sending to daycare and giving unhealthy things to the children to eat is absolutely absurd.
Not being sent to daycare and not being fed absolute garbage is two MAJOR factors in a child's mental/emotional and physical health. To sacrifice main components of a child's health only for the sake of fitting in, is absolutely horrendous parenting. I'm shocked that such bad advice is given at a chinuch class.

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but at the same time, the child picks up the chesbon for non-conformity

he sure picks up the tab for conformity as well!

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what are these kids gonna learn in gan alef. they are stuffing and teaching these 20 months old babies concept that they used to teach when the boys and girls were 3 and 4 years.

Raizy, if I wait until the school finally decides to teach my kid something, he will graduate an ignoramus.

mimivan

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 10:44 am

GR..

Thanks, as always, for your insightful posts.

The Rebbetzin's husband is learning dayanut. There is probably no point mentioning her name because 1) I doubt you'd recognize the name-- she is not from the U.S. and not so "famous" but well respected here and 2) you didn't seem to like what she said.

First of all, people here do not think of gan as "daycare." It is difficult to explain, but it really is a different culture here. Gan is not about abandoning your kids

Secondly, the nosh example was about picking one's battles. You seem to detest nosh more than the average parent. The rebbetzin's point was that, in the frum world, we say "no" so often, that we should think long and hard about additional "nos" that are beyond the letter of the law. Nosh may be a non-starter for you. That is your business.

Third, Just out of curiosity, GR. what do you think of collel? Women have to work in these situations..

Ruchel

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 10:51 am

Quote:

I never wanted to give my kid nosh. The rebbetzin said, "Isn't it enough you live in a non-religious neighborhood where this is not kosher and that is not kosher? Do you have to single him out and leave him out of nosh at parties because you don't want to give him nosh"

She is right. You need to pick your battles.

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a few of my friends who do not work keep their daughters home until 3 because they do not want to send their girls to a mixed gan for 2 year olds. I think this is sound logic, especially because at that age, there is toilet training, curiosity about the body etc...

wow. Most chareidi schools are co ed until middle school, they probably know what they are doing and are paying attention to what happens!

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if I wait until the school finally decides to teach my kid something, he will graduate an ignoramus.

Wow. You should change schools!

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The rebbetzin's point was that, in the frum world, we say "no" so often, that we should think long and hard about additional "nos" that are beyond the letter of the law.

yup

I think if you send to a Jewish kindergarten, it’s good to send at 3 so they are taught by people who studied for that. If you send to non Jewish kindergarten, well… it depends really much on how good it is. If the kindergarten is known for being great, ok, but if not then you can keep the child home.
If they just nap on the afternoon you can only send the morning.

gryp

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 10:51 am

suomynona wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

I would like to quote something from the bunkbed thread

Yael wrote:

I want to know how come we all remember kids being calm and quiet and playing nicely, but all the children in this generation "really needs daycare" because they are so hyper, disobedient, and wild.
What has changed?

Suo, I spent a lot of time on the bunkbed thread pointing out the difference between a safety hazard which there are laws against and safety recommendations which aren't set in stone. I don't know if I was successful in the end of that thread, but it doesn't work to compare the two threads. To deny that it is best for a child to be with his mother is a denial of the basics of the relationship between a mother and child. That's not at all like putting a kid on a bunkbed to sleep. If you take away the foundation of a child's security, which is his nurturing mother, then what is he left with?

At any rate, I was giving simple suggestions to the OP who has the freedom of choice whether or not to send her 21 month old off, and she asked what she would do with him at home. In a way I also I have a choice, we sure wouldn't mind having a dual income, all I have to do is send all my kids to school or babysitters. I wrote some reasons why I need to take care of my young kids at home and forfeit the second income. I certainly was not writing that any poster here doesn't know what's best for her child.

It's a shame though, because I think the power and confidence in mothering has gotten lost amongst mothers. And it's important to get it back in order to be a thorough and good parent.

In case anyone thinks I got it easy, my kids can be wild too. My oldest has always been quieter but also needs his screaming-running around- jumping off the walls time. Once I think he's been wild long enough, I tell him it's quiet time. That's all, he knows he has to listen. My second has had us running after him ever since he was born, but has grown up a lot in the past few months and also now has been trained to listen. My baby is loves loud noise, banging, and shrieking and makes a mess everywhere he goes, but he is learning to listen too.
Anyway, during the day I see the stay-at-home kids around the neighborhood and park, and they aren't all quiet and obedient.

gryp

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 11:17 am

Mimivan, in the year of sem I spent in Israel we were forunate to have many chinuch classes by all different people from all over Israel. That's why I thought I might know the name. Whatever.
Also, in my year in Israel we toured and observed many ganim, daycares, and elementary schools. It was part of learning to become a teacher. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean when you say "gan."

(So much for anonymity... Rolling Eyes

)

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Secondly, the nosh example was about picking one's battles.

It depends if it's important to you or not. Read up about proper nutrition. Read the ingredients on the label of the stuff people give freely to their kids. How can someone not care??

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You seem to detest nosh more than the average parent.

From what I see, the average parent gives very sugary cereals, hot cocoa, and a cupcake aka muffin to their kid for breakfast. Snack is super snacks, candy, soda, and donut.
Does any parent really expect their child to perform in school after all that sugar intake? Why do kids need all that to begin with? It's only because they are so used to doing it this way.
I've honestly truly asked parents why they give that to their kids. They tell me.. because the kids like it. shock

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The rebbetzin's point was that, in the frum world, we say "no" so often, that we should think long and hard about additional "nos" that are beyond the letter of the law

And what about a type of chinuch that emphasizes what we DO do, and not on what we are not allowed to do?

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Third, Just out of curiosity, GR. what do you think of collel? Women have to work in these situations..

I've said it before, I'll say it again only because you asked. Mothers should be raising the children that they are giving birth to.
I know a Kollel family. They have zero money, to the extent that they don't use hot water very often. They live as simple as you can imagine. The father learns and earns some little parnassah making Torah shiurim on tape. The mother gives a lecture now and then during the evening hours. I admire them because they worked it out so that they have it all, and they are happy people.

suomynona

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 1:13 pm

GR wrote:

Dont know where you got those words from. I call it "active". And my whole point is that NOT all children are like that.

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To deny that it is best for a child to be with his mother is a denial of the basics of the relationship between a mother and child. That's not at all like putting a kid on a bunkbed to sleep. If you take away the foundation of a child's security, which is his nurturing mother, then what is he left with?

Please cut out the melodramatics.. A child who is a way a few hours a day is not being denied a relationship with his mother and his foundation of security isn't taken away. He still spends most of his life at home with his Mommy. He just gets to have a little bit organized activity with other kids his age during the day, that's all. I think most people agree that that's not a necessity at that age, but it's very good for some.