Does everything happen for a reason?

sequoia

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:29 pm

amother wrote:

Sefer Iyyov ends with Hashem saying: I created the universe, you didn't, so stop complaining. There's nothing there about trying to make Iyyov a better person through his suffering.

Exactly. It's gorgeous and poetic and philosophical and there are NO NEAT ANSWERS. Otherwise it wouldn't have been read and studied for millenia. It's really a tremendous text, not just for Jews and Christians but for all people.

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:32 pm

sequoia wrote:

Personally, I find "sh!* happens" to be way more comforting than "there is an omnipotent, omniscient G-d who controls everything in the universe, and who could prevent evil (true evil, not 'blessings in disguise') and chooses not to."

Especially since hashkafically it's not necessary to believe that; the Rambam didn't hold that G-d controls all the little details.

The Rambam has a point since G-d did give us free will. But then how much free will do we really have if we have very little control over our lives outside of the basic decisions of what we eat, where we live, etc? And if we do have more free will other than the basics, then doesnt it contradict the notion that "everything happens for a reason, only G-d knows why" (since we would have been the ones to decide what the reason for doing things and therefore know why things happen)?

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:39 pm

wondergirl wrote:

The Rambam has a point since G-d did give us free. But then how much free will do we really have if we have very little control over our lives outside of the basic decisions of what we eat, where we live, etc? And if we do have more free will other than the basics, then doesnt it contradict the notion that "everything happens for a reason, only G-d knows why" (since we would have been the ones to decide what the reason for doing things and therefore know why things happen)?

The idea that Hashem deals with the minutiae of everyone's life is found in kabbalistic and chassidic thought, but it's not the only way to see the world. Once you pull back from the idea of direct involvement in every detail, the question is less pressing.

Obviously, you can still ask why Hashem created the world this way. And the answer, as He told Iyyov, is that we don't get to know why.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:53 pm

sequoia wrote:

I think people who talk in such a manner are subconsciously referring to mortal illness, genetic disability, fire, flood, and other "acts of God."

You would have to be a monster to believe that "everything happens for a reason" applies to child rape. Elder abuse. Female genital mutilation. Kids who are kept in basements, tortured, and killed without ever being rescued.

Back to your earlier post, about evil (vs. acts of G-d), I don't think I'm a monster but I also believe that G-d allows it to happen. His hands aren't tied. Now how to build up victims of evil, including oneself? Not with platitudes but not with denying G-d's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence either.

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:57 pm

amother wrote:

So G-d trusted us enough to give us free will but didnt trust us enough to give us the reasons as to why things happen. So do we really have free will or is that just an illusion so we wouldn't go crazy from all the things that happen to us without us knowing or understanding why they happen? And why doesnt G-d trust us enough by telling us why things happen? Why be so secretive about these things when it can bring healing for lots of people?

PinkFridge

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:57 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

First of all, thank you for not hijacking my thread. Your sensitivity means a lot to me.

I found the article interesting. I could agree with half of it. I do think that everything happens for a reason, but that does not mean that I'm not allowed to grieve, either. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The Talmud says that we should accept the good and the bad with equal joy, because both are sent for our own development and benefit. I am not on that level, but that doesn't mean that the Talmud is wrong. It's something to aspire to. If you did enough research, you might be able to count on one had the number of great tzaddikim who ever reached that stage, and that would be based mostly on stories from their followers.
)

We should, but in practice we don't. There are brachos that should be said in certain situations that we don't because, being on the levels we are, it would seem callous/we aren't able to say fully.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:58 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

You can't have it both ways. That's the problem of evil.

Hashem was perfectly willing to admit that He destroyed Iyyov's life on a bet. So who knows?

PinkFridge

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:58 pm

amother wrote:

There is a concept of Hashem, at times, withdrawing His hashgacha pratis, with the result of good people being caught up in bad circumstances. But it's still with His full knowledge and authority.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:02 pm

wondergirl wrote:

I think you're mixing up two things. People have free will and can do what they like. Yet Hashem can cause a tsunami or earthquake and kill thousands, or make one person suffer terribly because of an illness. These have nothing to do with human behavior and free choice.

martina

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:04 pm

wondergirl wrote:

How do you know that it was self pity rather than grief? Why is it so terrible to fall apart? Maybe you were meant to fall apart instead of pulling yourself together and you are still going through things until you fall apart so how do you know for sure that pulling yourself together was the right thing to do? What do you think would happen if you allow yourself to fall apart completely?

Because I havde had phases where I did fall apart. Completely. And I alow myself still to do so from time to time. I know my grief from self-pity by now. I am not tough with myself. I am a very intense emotional person and know myself well enough by now. I just observed my own proccess and see what helps and what doesn't.

Allowing yourself to grieve or to take a day or even week to say "I just can't" is ok. But the question lies in what you do afterwards that will show your strength.
Yes, at times I got to a point where I said "I think the only reason Hashem is doing all this is because He wants to make sure that I crack under the pressure and pain." because I see no way out.
And then I know that if I am to be the best I can be under my circumstances it means that I will forge ahead and leave the calculations to the One who created it, me and the world with all its inexplainable suffering.
A yid is a maamin. Our continuity through all the millenia was our unshakable pillars of belief. I hold on to those pillars. And I will not crumble because these arent the pillars of shimshon in philistine.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:06 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

There is a concept of Hashem, at times, withdrawing His hashgacha pratis, with the result of good people being caught up in bad circumstances. But it's still with His full knowledge and authority.

The fact that "there's a concept" doesn't mean it makes sense.

So Hashem withdraws hashgacha pratis. If we don't know the circumstances under which He chooses to do so, then what's the point? Let's say that Hashem withdraws so that someone can suffer. That's the same (both in intention and result) as actively causing the suffering.

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:10 pm

amother wrote:

I was asking about trust. If G-d trusts us enough to give us free will then why doesnt G-d trust us enough to give us the reasons as to why things happen (I.e. why he decided to cause a tsunami or make one person suffer, etc)? The key is trust, if you trust us to do the right thing then why not trust us by giving us the reasoning behind everything that happens?

relish

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:11 pm

sequoia wrote:

I think that those of us who were controlled and abused by people we trusted, find more comfort in "sh!* happens" than thinking that we are being hurt for a reason that we don't understand.
The second option is too similar to our parents/teachers/adults torturing us because they know better.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:14 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Just because Hashem gave us free will doesn't necessarily mean that He trusts us to do the right thing. We've been messing up since Adam and Chava. This is how Hashem chose to organize the world.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:14 pm

zaq wrote:

Happening for a reason does not mean "because of something bad the victim did". Read the Book of Job. His friends tried to persuade him that his troubles must have been sent as punishment for some unacknowledged fault of his. He maintained his innocence, and he was right. He had done nothing wrong. His troubles were sent to test his faith, not to punish him for wrongdoing.

There are many reasons that have nothing to do with punishment. To test your faith or to test someone else's. To make you stronger. To teach you something. To bring people together. To make you a catalyst for change in others. To inspire you to change yourself. The list goes on.

How does one come to terms with such an existence? I believe that may very well be the purpose why I am here.

I may end up suffering severe mental illness for the rest of my life, while watching the people around me get healthier and get the help they need because of their interactions with me, or my doing things on their behalf.

How the hell am I supposed to be able to come to terms with going through all of this suffering to give those nearest and dearest to me a better chance at life?

sequoia

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:15 pm

relish wrote:

Exactly.

Of course we all think of Divine love through the medium of human love (or lack thereof).

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:16 pm

amother wrote:

You can't have it both ways. That's the problem of evil.

Hashem was perfectly willing to admit that He destroyed Iyyov's life on a bet. So who knows?

Destroying someones life and allowing them to suffer just for a bet is cruel and abusive. Is that the reason why G-d doesnt want us to know why things happen, bc there are only cruel and abusive reasons behind it? Otherwise, why would G-d allow so much suffering especially if the people are following his Torah and are fully committed to him as Iyyov was?

sequoia

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:21 pm

wondergirl wrote:

It's absolutely cruel and abusive.

Which is why it's easier for some (not for others) to step away from the personalized conception and view G-d as a sort of Aristotelian First Cause or Unmoved Mover.

Others obviously find comfort in emunah and a more kabbalistic, chassidic approach.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 01 2017, 4:27 pm

wondergirl wrote:

We don't know. Period.

Hashem speaks in other places of His love for the Jewish people (that's the people as a whole, not individuals). Do I believe that Hashem is sadistic? Chas veshalom! But Hashem certainly does things that seem cruel to us.

I would much rather have a detached God than a cruel one.