S/O Tuition discount

amother

Blonde

Wed, May 03 2017, 6:48 pm

In a previous thread, people were very upset that a person with a tuition discount might have cleaning help, a luxury.

But isn't the tuition discount a discount given to the family based on what they can reasonably afford, and the rest of their budget is their own to make decisions with?

So if I'm making $50k a year, and the school charges me $12k tuition for 3 kids, isn't the other $38k mine to work with? Like I might choose to live in a smaller, uglier apartment in a less convenient location, and get cleaning help 4x/week. Or I might choose to eat beans and rice for dinner every night and go on a vacation to Florida once a year. Or I might only wear hand-me-downs but go out for pizza pretty often.

Of course if I was lying to the school, that's a different story and reprehensible + illegal + outright theft. Not talking about that here.

But if a committee decided that it is reasonable for me to have $X to spend on living expenses, and are willing to grant me a scholarship for the rest, what is wrong with ME deciding my spending priorities with the remainder?

Or is making less than $200K a year a moral failing which must be paid for by having a "takana" lifestyle?

Takana Lifestyle Proposal:

WORK:
Husband and wife must both work full time. If they cannot find jobs, they must spend 8 hours per day searching for jobs.
Cheapest childcare option must be taken.
Only public transportation may be taken to work.
Wife should get job where she can take baby to work, and children to work on school vacations.

HOUSING:
1 bedroom for parents
max 1 bedroom per 6 children
heat set at 64 in winter
1 fan, no AC
1 phone per family, max $25 per month
No internet or computer
Appliances: stove/oven, refrigerator, fan
Basement apartment preferred

TRANSPORTATION:
Vehicle not permitted
Max 1 taxi per week, max $15

CLOTHING:
Hand-me-downs only
Underwear/socks purchases once per year, max $10 per person
1 load in laundromat per 6 people, per week

FOOD:
Breakfasts - only oatmeal
Lunches - homemade bread with salt
Snacks - hard boiled eggs, carrots, and bananas (max 1 per day per person)
Dinner - beans and rice
Shabbos - (all items homemade) challah, tuna fish, soup (1 chicken wing, onion, carrots), potato kugel, frozen apple juice for dessert, cholent with beans, potatoes, and salt
Guests only allowed if guest brings or sponsors own food

ENTERTAINMENT:
No budget

SCHOOL SUPPLIES:
Only items specifically requested by teacher. Check minimum 3 stores to ensure cheapest price.

CLEANING SUPPLIES:
White vinegar, 1 package dollar store sponges per week, store brand dish soap
Dollar store broom and dustpan
No mops - floors can be washed by hand with shmatte (free)

DIAPERS:
Either: Cheapest brand in store, 1 size smaller than needed, changed max 4 times per day, OR cloth "flats" with pins and plastic pants (extra 2 loads of laundry per week permitted)

HEALTH CARE:
No copay allowed. Use only free resources.

PESACH:
1/2 lb matzah allowance per person aged 8 and over, 1/4 lb allowance for ages 3 to 7
Potatoes, carrots, and onions allowed in unlimited quantities
gefilte fish (1 slice per Yom Tov meal) allowed for ages 8 and up
2 rolls aluminum foil permitted
grape juice allowed only at seder
$3 per person allowance to get fruit and vegetables of choice for Pesach

YOM TOV:
1lb chicken per person per holiday
challah
tuna fish, chicken soup (as for Shabbos), 1 fruit (max 50 cents) per person allowed as treat, frozen orange juice for dessert
minimum quantities of all customary foods (honey, apples, dairy, hamentashen, latkes)
use neighbor’s sukkah

FURNITURE:
All furniture less than 10 years old must be sold, proceeds to go to school
Only twin size or single size mattresses allowed
Other furniture may be taken from curbsides or bought for max $15 per item through Craigslist (1 bed per person, dressers not allowed, 1 chair per person, 1 table)
1 bed bug inspection per year is permitted

SAVINGS:
Must be turned over in entirety to school

SIMCHAS:
Attendance only permitted if using existing clothing (no gown rentals) and if transportation not required
Flight for one person may be taken in case of death (R”L) of close family member

MIKVAH:
Cheapest mikvah must be used
Bedikah cloths should be washed and reused

OTHER EXPENSES:
Max $10 per year, per person
All other expenses must be brought before a board of Rabonim for approval

amother

Tan

Wed, May 03 2017, 7:14 pm

I like your post. I agree. Even lower income people should have freedom to spend their $ as they wish (after paying the tuition amount deemed reasonable by the tuition board based on their numbers) without everyone's noses in their business.

elisheva25

Wed, May 03 2017, 10:19 pm

I get your point
But why would you type this whole list up????

amother

Linen

Wed, May 03 2017, 10:54 pm

elisheva25 wrote:

I get your point
But why would you type this whole list up????

I thought it was funny. And as someone who receives tuition assistance, among other kinds of assistance, it actually made me feel a little better.

seeker

Thu, May 04 2017, 1:01 am

Quote:

But isn't the tuition discount a discount given to the family based on what they can reasonably afford, and the rest of their budget is their own to make decisions with?

Alas, that is not the way it works. They compare your income with your expenses to decide what you can reasonably afford, and if you stretch your budget really tightly then that's just their luck that there ends up being a bigger gap between your income and expenses. If your expenses include what they consider an unreasonable amount of luxuries then they will not validate that. On one hand it's somewhat "unfair" but on the other hand it makes sense in some ways. How else are they supposed to figure outwhat you can reasonably afford? Two people can have the same income and family size but a different bottom line depending on things like medical needs/disability, work related travel/expenses, things like that.

amother

cornflower

Thu, May 04 2017, 1:29 am

If my school had these takonas I would jyst spend to PS
Oh wait a sec
I paid through the nose. And still ended up sending becausee the jewish schools couldn't address their needs

amother

Blonde

Thu, May 04 2017, 4:56 am

elisheva25 - because it was cathartic Smile

seeker - Yes, they look at your monthly expenses when calculating your discount. But they do not audit your expenditures each month, or do they? So once I have received my discounted price of $12k in tuition, I am free to eat more pizza or wear more hand-me-downs so I can afford my cleaning lady.

saw50st8

Thu, May 04 2017, 7:33 am

Tuition discounts (misnomer really, it's charitable funds to cover money that you do not cover) are given based on what the school thinks you can reasonably afford. If you would take charity to fund your cleaning help or your pizza dinner or your florida vacation, then your premise makes sense. You are not negotiating with a profit-making company who's putting an item on sale.

Yes, I think that people should do whatever they can to reduce their expenses if they can't actually pay for their tuition. There are many things that my family does to make sure we can pay tuition (including not having cleaning help, rarely eating out, choosing cheaper options for camps etc)

It's not a moral failing to need help. It is a moral failing to take more than you need and think it's ok. If you need less, then pay more.

STMommy

Thu, May 04 2017, 12:13 pm

OMG blonde amother when I started reading I thought the list was real!! embarrassed

amother

Blonde

Thu, May 04 2017, 1:54 pm

Hence lies the disagreement. I don't think that it is accepting charity to pay a reasonable amount for education, even though the school's sticker price is far higher.

If an organization sets itself up as a nonprofit and collects donations, it has an obligation to ensure that it meets the needs of the people it is serving. If 70% of the target audience cannot afford their services, they should be cutting costs to make their service affordable.

A Jewish education is a communal obligation, as codified in Shulchan Aruch.

Parents also have an obligation to educate their children, but the community has an obligation to enable its members to fulfill their obligation.

The cost for a no-frills education (no textbooks, activities, worksheets, large class sizes) should be within reach of most parents.

If the schools choose to employ luxuries in education (separate classes for every age, fancy playground equipment, extra-curricular activities, a full-time janitor instead of having students shoulder some of the burden of cleaning, etc.) and by doing this they are pricing out parents from their organization. They are free to collect charity for this, but cannot therefore say that *I* am collecting charity since they have given me no choice to request the basics only.

There is something seriously skewed about saying that everyone in the community is living off charity by benefitting from a charity-supported organization. Did you pay a measured percentage of the cost of building the shul your family attends (divided equally by member families)? If not, perhaps you are living off charity.

amother

Blonde

Thu, May 04 2017, 1:55 pm

STMommy wrote:

OMG blonde amother when I started reading I thought the list was real!! embarrassed

It is, according to many posters here. If you do not pay 100% tuition, none of your money belongs to you. You are a beneficiary of charity, and therefore have no rights to decision-making with that money.

SixOfWands

Thu, May 04 2017, 1:59 pm

amother wrote:

If an organization sets itself up as a nonprofit and collects donations, it has an obligation to ensure that it meets the needs of the people it is serving. If 70% of the target audience cannot afford their services, they should be cutting costs to make their service affordable.

A Jewish education is a communal obligation, as codified in Shulchan Aruch.

Parents also have an obligation to educate their children, but the community has an obligation to enable its members to fulfill their obligation.

The cost for a no-frills education (no textbooks, activities, worksheets, large class sizes) should be within reach of most parents.

If the schools choose to employ luxuries in education (separate classes for every age, fancy playground equipment, extra-curricular activities, a full-time janitor instead of having students shoulder some of the burden of cleaning, etc.) and by doing this they are pricing out parents from their organization. They are free to collect charity for this, but cannot therefore say that *I* am collecting charity since they have given me no choice to request the basics only.

There is something seriously skewed about saying that everyone in the community is living off charity by benefitting from a charity-supported organization. Did you pay a measured percentage of the cost of building the shul your family attends (divided equally by member families)? If not, perhaps you are living off charity.

Feel free to start a school with 70 students of different ages in each class, with only one teacher, whom you're paying minimum wage. (Good luck finding that person!) No text books or handout sheets. Put yourself out as the first volunteer to come in and scrub the urinals and toilets each night.

Enjoy!

Raisin

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:06 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

There are schools that have managed to cut costs significantly without necessarily cutting the quality of the education. I beleive Saw50st8 sends her kids to such a school.

Also, more right wing schools often charge much lower tuition then M.O. schools.

I do think there are serious problems with Jewish education today. Mainly the cost. What is the point of Jewish education, if in order to afford that education, parents are severely limiting thier family size?

amother

Blonde

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:08 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

There are many things that my family does to make sure we can pay tuition

This only works if the cost of tuition is possible, albeit difficult. This no longer works when tuition costs exceed 50% of your gross income.

You are basically saying that a person who chose to remain frum while making in the median income in the USA ($51K) owes all of their money to the schools, and is receiving funds for rent and food as charity.

amother

Honeydew

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:10 pm

If you are paying for a Florida vacation for a family of 5 on a 50K salary after 12K of tuition - my concern would be needing to contribute to a Kallah fund for your daughters.

dancingqueen

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:14 pm

amother wrote:

But the fact is that it accepting charity, from the other parents who are paying full tuition and end up giving all the other kids who don't a ride. Yeshiva tuition is insanely expensive, but private education is actually a luxury, but also an expectation in our communities.

amother

Blonde

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:20 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Paying 20% of my income is not "getting a ride."

Yeshiva education is a communal obligation, as evidenced by the fact that they are a nonprofit and collecting charity funds, not a luxury.

That schools charge a higher tuition to cover scholarships is a separate issue.

amother

Amethyst

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:22 pm

amother wrote:

First of all, if you're making $50,000 a year, you're almost certainly taking home less than $39,000. After paying $12,000 tuition, that's about $2200 a month ($575 or so a week) to live on, including health insurance/mortgage or rent, food, clothing, savings, and transportation. So do I really believe that this person is taking 15% to 50% of their income to pay someone to clean the house a few hours a week? Sorry, unless there is a real disability, no, I don't. At that income level, I think they're more worried about rent and the heating bill than about cleaning help. And if they have cleaning help several times a week? I think they're lying about their income. Strike that. I know they are lying.

Next, you're pretending that -- GASP!! -- a school actually asking someone to WORK for a living before asking others to pay their expenses is horrible. Akin to telling them to dress in rags. Its not.

This attitude that work is beneath people is disgusting. Its beneath people's dignity to clean their own homes. Beneath their dignity to hold down a job. And if that means that someone else pays the bills, so be it.

NO.

Tuition assistance exists, and should exist, for people who are doing their best, but can't pay. People who are unemployed. Disabled. Have lower incomes. Have high medical or other unavoidable expenses. Single parents. Have a child with special needs. And a million other things that I missed. Not for people who would rather not hold a job.

amother

Turquoise

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:25 pm

A high school for boys in Brooklyn that opened up 7 Yrs ago wanted to charge parents ONLY $7,000 a yr. Absolutely NO tuition breaks, no matter what.
The rabbi claimed he could manage the money in such a way to make it possible.
When the other schools heard this, they pressured him to raise tuition to the same as they charged.

This school now has 3 buildings, owned (they since opened a girl's schoo and a preschool) because the administration knows how to manage the monies coming in.

I don't understand why this model could not work.
Let the fancy schools give all the whistles.
Of course there wouldn't be any extra services unless it was free from the government.

My point is, perhaps if schools managed the monies better, we wouldn't be stuck paying such high tuition.

SixOfWands

Thu, May 04 2017, 2:26 pm

Raisin wrote:

The poster referred to a "no-frills education (no textbooks, activities, worksheets, large class sizes)" She also advocated for not having a janitorial or cleaning staff, and having the kids scrub the commodes.

I assume that I'm familiar with the school Saw sends her kids to. They cut costs, but they don't eliminate textbooks and work sheets and cleaning staff.