Is it better "to have loved and to have lost?”

chocolate moose

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 10:45 am

I’m friendly with a woman who lost a child, lo oleinu.

At the yortzeit gathering, I sat with a woman (60 years old) who kept saying, in a loud voice, that her “pekel tsoris” is wore than the mother’s because she never was able to have kids. She then pointed to a woman and said, in a loud voice, “that woman has 16 kids and I have none!”

I said to her, half jokingly, “do you think she has your kids” but she didn’t answer me. Then, another woman said to her, “my sister doesn’t have any kids”, to which she replied, “that doesn’t help me”. That same woman also said that she heard of a woman having a baby at 65 years of age. And then the childless woman stormed out.
I think the question here is two-fold.

One - I am assuming that the women just wants more pity. I mean, the yortzeit gathering was a public acknowledgement of the loss of the child, but the childless woman must feel that she has no acknowledgement of her pain….

And Two - what do you think - is it better” to have loved and to have lost?”

greenfire

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 10:52 am

well to have loved means you once did indeed have something ... and you will always have that ...

to never have is to never have known ... to always be longing ...

a pity to take her pain out over a memorial though ...

mummiedearest

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 11:21 am

it depends on the situation. obviously, the woman who lost the child would not say that she wished he had never been born, rather that she had not lost him. for a woman who cannot have children, we don't know. since we are speaking philosophically here, I would assume that if the 65 year old had never been successful in having children it wasn't meant to be. it is obviously very painful for her, and my heart goes out to her. we cannot ask which situation is better, they are both different.

happyone

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 11:40 am

My friend lost her one and only child, and is very grateful for the time she had the child. She would never say, I'd rather have not loved. Yes, it was a tease at motherhood, and makes the pain far greater - but, had she had the choice, I don't think she would've given up this time.

mimivan

Thu, Sep 27 2007, 6:58 pm

While I think your thread brings up interesting philosophical questions, CM, I think both situations are so sad and terrible, that I can't really put myself into the headspace of either woman...

I don't think anyone can who b'h hasn't been through this...

Much less compare...

It sounds like the childless woman needs some kind of support group...she feels as if she is all alone in the world, especially if she is venting at a yarzheit of a child r'l...she sound, quite frankly, a bit out of control and needs help.

chocolate moose

Sat, Sep 29 2007, 8:46 pm

I ended up calling up the mother of the large family and she said the best thing is not to think about it.

That she knows the childless woman well, doesn't think ill of her or the situation, and bentched me with a good sweet year.

GAMZu

Sat, Sep 29 2007, 11:02 pm

It's very, very hard for that 60 year old woman. I'm thinking that when she got past child bearing age, losing all hope for a child, it was as harsh a blow to her as to this mother who lost a child.

But she didn't have shiva or any acknowledgment or support at all.

The comment about a woman giving birth at 65 was waaaaay off.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Sep 29 2007, 11:23 pm

GAMZu wrote:

It's very, very hard for that 60 year old woman. I'm thinking that when she got past child bearing age, losing all hope for a child, it was as harsh a blow to her as to this mother who lost a child.

why do we need to compare?
none of us get to decide who has bigger tzorus then the other.
I feel the woman was way out of line but I don't wish to judge her especially after yom kippur and considering her circumstances.
But I ask you and anyone else responding that way, where do you get the authority to rate these things?

Raisin

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 4:07 am

People do have to make these decisions though. Eg a couple are told the baby they are carrying will die very young. A lot of people WOULD choose not to have such a baby.

IF you are comparing a person who has several children and lo aleinu one of them passes away or the woman who never had kids, no question, most of us would choose the first scenario.

I feel for the poor woman, but perhaps this gathering was the wrong place for her. As Gamzu said, she didn't get to hold a gathering to acknowledge her loss. (I wonder if support groups do exist for women like these? Perhaps ATIME or similar runs something?)

chocolate moose

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:01 am

Tefilah, it's a situation which bothers me very very much.

I find it very difficult when a woman hasn't been able to have children and be mekayim HaShem's brochos.

GAMZu

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:14 pm

EstiS, I said I think. I didn't set up a parallel that this tzora equals that one.
It's obvious, though, by the way the woman reacted, that SHE feels that her tzaar is worse than the grieving mother of 16.
Her outburst was inappropriate, no doubt about it.
But down to the question? I think it's better to have loved and lost. Think how much the person gains.

greenfire

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 5:47 pm

sometimes there is a lot of money involved in adoption ... not so easy ...

I have heard of many a couple who have adopted ... and b"h ended up having their own too ...

60 is probably a little too late to think about it ...

amother

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 5:51 pm

I know of someone who is getting on in age and feeling hopeless got a puppy - she adores it and it keeps her company - certainly not the same thing but you never know if this 60 year old lady couldn't use a companion of a different sort. Chocolate Moose perhaps you can make such a suggestion.

technic

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 6:06 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Don't yell at me, but why don't those childless couples adopt or foster children? That might prove that they really want them. Am I wrong?

im not yelling but...why and 2 whom do they need 2 prove anything !!! shock

...kol hakavod 2 anyone who fosters or adopts but that isnt the answer 4 the woman whose body is screaming out 4 her own baby Sad

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 6:10 pm

good answer technic

also Isramom, there are technical problematic issues that can arise with adoption.
yichud for example.
I'm not saying its a reason not to adopt or foster ch"v. I admire anyone who does so, but for a parent that wants to be able to hug their child even when they get older and are of the opposite gender, it may not always be the answer they are looking for.