Is it better "to have loved and to have lost?”

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greenfire

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 6:14 pm

you have the same issues with step children but that never stops one from a second marriage ...

Isramom8

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 6:34 pm

I'm the one who asked why not adopt or foster. Isn't it better to have a child you can't hug after a certain age, and not be allowed to be alone with, than not have one at all? Isn't it better to be proactive about finding a solution instead of kvetching piteously? Biological kids also cost tons of money. I said "prove" because I can't help doubting sincerity when people complain but do not act.

Yes, I judge favorably that they are making the hishtadlus they consider appropriate. But I feel very uncomfortable when friends with only one child, or single friends close to or past 40, complain to me about wanting kids. Get kids. It's not simple, but neither is the typical route. If you want it, try to go for it. Or at least admit that you could be adopting or fostering but choose not to. If you have no children in your life, take some responsibility for that fact and don't make yourself into such a passive nebach. I think more highly of you than that.

A woman can work with children. A woman can volunteer with children. A woman can be a wonderful aunt, taking kids on trips.

I'm really not the insensitive brute that I sound like. I just feel guilty being blessed with kids when friends lay this problem on me.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 6:39 pm

EstiS wrote:

good answer technic

also Isramom, there are technical problematic issues that can arise with adoption.
yichud for example.
I'm not saying its a reason not to adopt or foster ch"v. I admire anyone who does so, but for a parent that wants to be able to hug their child even when they get older and are of the opposite gender, it may not always be the answer they are looking for.

Yup. If your rav rules there is yichud, it must be so hard!

Tefila

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 6:47 pm

Quote:

Isn't it better to be proactive about finding a solution instead of kvetching piteously?

Don't you think that could sound to an infertile couple as a real cold statement, how about compassion u think they don't know their options and are cluelss as to what they could or could not do shock

May I be so bold as to ask u if u have children yourself, not ones that you may have adopted?
Btw it is something to reflect on, u don't have to answer Exclamation

Isramom8

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 6:55 pm

Yes, we do have biological kids, and we sort of fostered two other children for a while. I would consider fostering more children.

Not everyone will choose to do this or anything I suggested as options. I respect that. Personally, I feel a whole lot better when I am proactive in finding solutions to my problems than when I just feel sorry for myself.

chocolate moose

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 7:26 pm

Fostering or adoption is a good idea, if and when she goes through menopause, especially. I never asked her about that.

She said she had the Lub Rebbe's brocho for children. Maybe she was takeh meant to adopt or foster.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 8:10 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Isramom I understand the point you are trying to make, and I think its an admirable perspective to be proactive rather then kvetch.
No body likes a kvetch its true, but you can't really judge.
maybe a parent feels its too big a nisayon to have a child they can't hug
maybe she or he doesn't feel they could love a child that didn't come from themselves the way they would love their own child.

Its very easy to say, well I would/could do it, so they should to, but as tefila suggested, don't you think they know what their options are and weighed them up?

greenfire wrote:

you have the same issues with step children but that never stops one from a second marriage ...

and that proves what?

greenfire

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 8:21 pm

EstiS wrote:

greenfire wrote:

you have the same issues with step children but that never stops one from a second marriage ...

and that proves what?

that people still choose same ...

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 10:15 pm

and therefore...?

I don't get the relevance to this discussion

greenfire

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 10:26 pm

EstiS wrote:

yichud for example...for a parent that wants to be able to hug their child even when they get older and are of the opposite gender, it may not always be the answer they are looking for.

should have quoted that earlier ... that is the comparison ...

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 10:29 pm

I still don't get the relevance.

we are discussing infertility and whether fostering or adoption is the solution for everyone, we are not discussing re-marriage. Confused

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 10:32 pm

EstiS wrote:

yichud for example...for a parent that wants to be able to hug their child even when they get older and are of the opposite gender, it may not always be the answer they are looking for.

saying that some people remarry even though yichud will be an issue with their step children, has no relevance to the above quote.

Li'chaim

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 10:53 pm

this is the saddest thing I can think of- I am close to tears just thinking about it- chas visholom something should happen to my husband and baby- and I daven every day for Hashem to keep them safe, I love them so much, bh bh

so many terrible terrible things have happened in our "Jewish family" and it's really enough!
I am bentching all of you, us, and klal yisrael, that Hashem should give us all a wonderful year rich in all the brochas bigashmius and biruchnius and most importantly, health!!!

moshiach now!

Tefila

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 1:32 am

l'chaim welcome and beautiful post Smile

momof6

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 8:22 am

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!
May no Yiddishe Mother ever experience tzarah ever again!
May we experience a true Simchas Torah in Yerushalayim w/ the Bais Hamikdash!

GAMZu

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 10:11 am

If a child is adopted from infancy, there is no issue of yichud/negia.

greenfire

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 10:28 am

GAMZu wrote:

If a child is adopted from infancy, there is no issue of yichud/negia.

good to know ...

amother

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 11:18 am

chocolate moose,
Actually I was at the same gathering with you. I saw that exchange from behind sorta and didn't get the entire conversation but understood the gist. Now I get the whole thing! I felt terrible seeing the reaction on the face of the mom of 16 but was glad that she smartly kept quiet.
Just to clarify, I was there because I got to know the mom who lost because I also lost a child.
I think in the case of the bitter childless woman, the idea of support is great! Knowing the support I have in my situation, it's NECESSARY. See if you can get her help. And yes, I agree this was not the place for her, if she has all that pain bottled in her. At a yahrzeit one needs to support the mourner and keep their own Tzaros out. Baruch Hashem the Mom didn't get wind of this exchange (as much as I saw)
I also think it is VERY important for people to think before they speak. Some of the comments she received were not appropriate. She would have been best off with some sympathy, maybe a hug, hold her hand, "we feel for you."
That said, going back to your philosophical topic, I must agree that is depends in which situation. In a marriage that went sour, say, it's very different than loss or lack of children. Having lost a young child, I can loudly say I would never have wanted to miss out on this opportunity. Maybe I sound too easy about it. Don't get me wrong. It's murder. I feel I live in a 'specially marked' section of Gehinnom that NONE of you should ever glimpse at. BUT to have not had this child, to have not loved it, that's unthinkable.
I feel, in a way, luckier and more privileged than that woman. I can't imagine being at her spot in life with only hurt to hold on to. Baruch Hashem I have other children, I have memories and pictures and I HAVE SUPPORT. I think her pain is TEN TIMES worse than mine.

Tefila

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 11:43 am

Quote:

If a child is adopted from infancy, there is no issue of yichud/negia.

Says WHO we need a Source!!!!
possibly it is referring until Bas Mitzvah but 4 sure not beyond Exclamation

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 11:58 am

Tefila wrote:

Quote:

If a child is adopted from infancy, there is no issue of yichud/negia.

Says WHO we need a Source!!!!
possibly it is referring until Bas Mitzvah but 4 sure not beyond Exclamation

Beyond too, if the rav says so. There are two different opinions.

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