Sandals in Lakewood

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Sandals in Lakewood

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SpottedBanana

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 11:43 am

amother wrote:

Since when do non-orthodox Jews live in thriving Jewish communities?

Other people are just being sarcastic with you, so I'll just give you some information. Obviously they're not "thriving" according to our yardstick of how much Torah is being learned, etc but there are some non-Orthodox Jewish communities that are thriving (and many more that are dwindling fast, but that's for another time) according to their yardsticks of how many members in their shul, how many social justice or Israel-related events they have, how many people send to a Jewish day school instead of public school, etc.

Salient examples include many communities in central and southern NJ (Westfield, Short Hills, etc), Manhattan like 14th St Y, and of course major cities around the world just like frum Jews. Obviously, there are many many non-Orthodox Jews who have no problem living in places with no other Jews because they are not particularly engaged with their Judaism, but many many others want to live near a non-Orthodox shul for cultural events or to send their kids to non-Orthodox day schools.

I understand how this could be confusing, because it is not like the frum world where tight-knit "communities" can be measured in terms of square blocks. But the involved ones do tend to live within about 20 minutes or so of their preferred shul/JCC/whatever center they are involved in.

amother

Denim

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 11:43 am

amother wrote:

I believe the Kotler and the families that they brought with them co-existed peacefully with the Day School families. No one was chased anyone out of anywhere.

Correct. They were friendly. When did I ever say they weren't, or that people were chased out?

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 11:45 am

amother wrote:

In addition to my last reply, you can hardly label the reform movement as thriving at all. If there would have been such a community in Lakewood that died out, it wouldn't specially have to do with the new community at all, but with the alarmingly high intermarriage and assimilation rates.

Actually to this day there is still a reform community in Lkwd. I believe that there is still a conservative community as well. Some of my family who originally moved there in the early 60's sold and moved to other areas when the housing market was on the rise. The were a mix of reform and conservative. Others stayed and made the swerve right in the 70's.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 11:51 am

amother wrote:

Correct. They were friendly. When did I ever say they weren't, or that people were chased out?

Not you, it was amother slate blue. I used your quote because it explained it well

benny

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 11:51 am

All of your posts are true but ultimately the Yeshiva is what grew and grew and made lakewood a huge thriving Jewish community. Had they never settled here lakewood would probably still be a tiny sleepy town with a sprinkling of mo Jews.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 11:58 am

benny wrote:

My family first moved to Lkwd in 1951. MO Jews in Lakewood are a recent arrival. In NJ in those days we were just Jews. In many towns you would find frumma worshiping in Conservative synagogues due to the lack of ultra orthodox venues.

tigerwife

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 12:01 pm

I have this memory of Etka Gittel Schwartz writing a short story that took place in 19th Century Lakewood (civil war era).

amother

Denim

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 12:02 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

This. My family is not MO but is not yeshivish (no hair covering etc). They're plain, old frum Jews.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 12:02 pm

amother wrote:

Correct. They were friendly. When did I ever say they weren't, or that people were chased out?

My posts were also replying to that premise.
There was one poster who claims that the new community in Lakewood drove out a thriving Jewish community that existed there beforehand. But, with all the sarcastic responses, no has yet agreed that she was actually right.

amother

Denim

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 12:07 pm

amother wrote:

Plenty of the old time lakewooders still live here.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 12:48 pm

benny wrote:

Lakewood like all of the smaller communities in the area would have seen explosive growth from a variety of people. That's why NJ can no longer be The Garden State. It's just got to do with population density.It would have been developed like other areas, and perhaps quite differently. Lakewood will continue to grow due to Frum Jews. NonJews won't be too interested in moving there due to the schools being so terrible, it's not a destination they will choose. Overpriced housing and a crummy public school system won't attract nonJews who are looking for housing values and good schools.

benny

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 12:54 pm

That's true but the reason ppl are flocking here as opposed to some other town in Nj is because there is a full thriving Jewish community here.

amother

Azure

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 1:05 pm

amother wrote:

I think you're missing a significant part of history. Quite a number of years ago (waaaaaaaay more than than 35) Reb Aaron came to open a yeshiva and kollel what is now know as BMG. There was very little Jewish life in Lakewood at the time. Lakewood WAS the yeshiva and the yeshiva was Lakewood. Yes there may have been all types but R' Aaron set the presidence for the way certain things are done. Some of these things have stuck, others haven't as Lakewood became more of a diverse community instead of a small kollel out of town little shtetle. For example, many mesivtas in Lakewood do not have English programs. Why? Because that's how R' Aaron wanted it. Today thank G-D things have changed and more high schools are moving along with the times.

The issue mostly lies with the people who want Lakewood to stay true to its original origins when R' Aron founded the Kollel and community making up of the kollel families to be a simple, G-D fearing, non-materialistic way of life. Then there are the newcomers who want Lakewood to change to a diverse, accepting community that welcomes everyone. This is the challenge that Lakewood is dealing with right now- the yeshiva life and the people who want their kids to remain insular and follow certain "rules" to the newcomers who are a little more out of the box.

Yes, there were always modern orthodox people in Lakewood even after R Aaron came but they were not a majority.

I think you're missing a significant part of my point. People have been defending the judgmentalism here due to "respecting community norms" or whatever. It's the newcomers who decided that. The Lakewood I grew up in was not like this. And many old time Lakewood people would agree that if R Aharon was still around he would understand that some changes need to be made as generations change, one of which is not teaching Yiddish in community schools like Bais Faiga and the Cheder (but that's for a different discussion and too much has changed in that area since I was younger anyway). And I doubt he would condone the current Lakewood materialism and judgmentalism.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 2:03 pm

Im in my mid thirties and I remember going to bais faiga with all kinds of kids in my class. Yeshivish, chassidish, heimish, Baal habbatish....and it was all fine. There was no such term as modern besides for the real "modern orthodox "who went to the day school. But then again there weren't pple im bais faiga with mothers who didn't dress tznius.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 2:20 pm

amother wrote:

I stand to be corrected if she meant that, but I don't think she was referring to that.

Pinkfridge - I'm not sure what's there to not understand with my post. Non orthodox Jews don't usually live in special 'Jewish communities'. So to say that there were thriving Jewish communities in Lakewood that were driven out just sounds a bit of a stretch...

I hear you. But sometimes the enclaves are right next door to the frum areas, or there are holdovers who choose not to move or can't move and remain as the communities become frum. Or, there are frum people who move out to the more affluent suburbs, whether Chabad or just more affluent themselves and have enough of a presence.

So there isn't total segregation, was my point.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 2:25 pm

tigerwife wrote:

I have this memory of Etka Gittel Schwartz writing a short story that took place in 19th Century Lakewood (civil war era).

I thought it was later in the century, but not a big deal ;-) Don't remember it too well besides the human chess board and a few other impressions.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 2:41 pm

amother wrote:

So the question is...did your mother wear sandals? Very Happy

cbsp

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 3:08 pm

In the mid 90's there was a secular politician who ran for some local seat with the slogan "a vote for me is a vote against the Rabbis"

Her brother helped build Coventry Square years before.

I think the people who were less religious drove themselves out (ie, willingly sold their houses for top dollar/children moved away), similar to the communities around Lakewood currently complaining about being driven out (Toms River, Jackson, etc).

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 13 2017, 3:09 pm

amother wrote:

So the question is...did your mother wear sandals? Very Happy

No she didnt. Everyone covered their legs. As kids we definitely wore short sleeves and short socks at older ages then they do now.

Notsobusy

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 10:01 am

amother wrote:

Technically you're right, originally Lakewood wasn't a frum town, but how far back do you want us to go? Should we check out the minhag hamakom of the Native Americans?

There has been a thriving orthodox community, mostly centered around BMG, for at at least 30 years now. So yes, I would say by now we can look at the minhag hamakom and say if you move to Lakewood today, and have a different standard of tznius, don't be surprised if people look at you twice and don't want to accept your children to their schools.

The Kotlers did go to the day school, many of our respected rabbanim in that age range, not just those from Lakewood, went to day schools, or even public school. Many of the older generation of rabbanim and rosh yeshivos grew up JPF or in communities that didn't have yeshivos. It was a different world, and although in many ways it was a better, more tolerant world, we have to be realistic and face up to the fact that we aren't going back to 60-70 years ago.

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