Sandals in Lakewood

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 10:30 am

I think what happens is, when a frum community is started, it is often initially accepting of all types, since every person is needed for the schools/shuls, everyone counts. As the community grows and strengthens, people flock to it for the benefits it offers. The community no longer depends on those who don't fit their mold, and they start to be more in-the-box. The people who join the community who are not fitting in that box get told, adapt to our minhag hamakom, respect our rules, etc...or you will have no place here.

My mother A"H was born in the late 1940's, and her parents were pioneers of the Boro Park community. The bought a big old house there in a day when Boro Park was the suburbs! My mother was from the early attendees of BY of BP. You should see her yearbooks. Most students wore short sleeves and short socks at least until Bat Mitzvah. The yearbook has cute articles about the movies the girls were into, as well as references to popular TV shows, and of course, the secular novels of the day. I think the staff of that same school today would want these yearbooks buried! My mother told me that she had friends who were choosing high schools among BY, Central, Shulamith, etc...the differences were much more blurred.

This is the story of so many frum communities. Lakewood had a diverse population...it grew to be a yeshiva community...and now once again, it has a diverse population. The End.

amother

Navy

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 10:31 am

Notsobusy wrote:

Technically you're right, originally Lakewood wasn't a frum town, but how far back do you want us to go? Should we check out the minhag hamakom of the Native Americans?

There has been a thriving orthodox community, mostly centered around BMG, for at at least 30 years now. So yes, I would say by now we can look at the minhag hamakom and say if you move to Lakewood today, and have a different standard of tznius, don't be surprised if people look at you twice and don't want to accept your children to their schools.

The Kotlers did go to the day school, many of our respected rabbanim in that age range, not just those from Lakewood, went to day schools, or even public school. Many of the older generation of rabbanim and rosh yeshivos grew up JPF or in communities that didn't have yeshivos. It was a different world, and although in many ways it was a better, more tolerant world, we have to be realistic and face up to the fact that we aren't going back to 60-70 years ago.

Liking this wasn't enough. When Rav MP Teitz ztl moved to Elizabeth in the 1930's there had technically already been a community since the 1920's. In that community there was no mikva because people didn't think it was tznius to talk about the mikva. So what, therefore the mikvaos in Elizabeth are a newcomers' invention? Obviously I'm not comparing TH to not wearing sandals, just that at a certain point a community changes forever and that's that.

amother

Royalblue

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 2:07 pm

What I find baffling is this. If you are, let's say, Litvish or JPF, you would be highly unlikely to try to send your children to a Chassidish school. You would understand that they have their dress codes (be it for girls, boys, or parents) and their rules such as women not driving or no secular literature in the home. You need not agree with their rules. You would realize that your child fits better in an institution whose values you share.

When Lakewood had a day school, you had choices. Either apply to a "Yeshivish" school and conform to rules, send to the day school, or even out of town (Deal, Elizabeth, etc). But, surprisingly enough, people who did not want to follow "Yeshivish" rules still wanted their children to be accepted to "Yeshivish" schools.

Eventually, the day school closed, which I think is very unfortunate.

I am not such a conformist myself, though I do try to keep my more extreme ideas quiet and private. I understand DVMOM's feelings, but I do think you can pick your battles. Feel free to dress an uniquely as you like. But I would suggest that 'toeing the line' in public with regard to commonly accepted standards of tznius would be of benefit to your children. (Pun evidently intended by my sub-conscious)

amother

Pewter

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 2:14 pm

amother wrote:

Her kids are already in schools so I guess it's fine?

amother

Chocolate

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 2:20 pm

amother wrote:

What benefit would her boys get from having a mom with covered toes?

DVOM

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 7:45 pm

Hi guys, OP here

I checked out for the few days while nursing my two-year old through another awful bout of asthma Sad

Thankfully he's feeling much better, and I'm able to resume my imamother habit : wink: What an interesting conversation this has evolved into! Lets see how many of my thoughts I can put down in words before its time to welcome Shabbos:

singleagain wrote:

I recently heard something interesting about lines in terms of boundaries and rights

"Your rights end where mine begin."

I really agree with this... no one else should be telling me what I can or cannot do based on their opinions. On the other hand, I do agree that there might be a societal standard. However, I don't think upholding that standard to the point of ostracization for "minor infractions" is in society's best interest.

I love this quote, singleagain!

I think some would argue though that I am infringing on their rights: the right to live in an insular community, to raise their children in an insular community.

DVOM

Fri, Jul 14 2017, 8:04 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Not your specific example, as I don't know how old your son is, how big or small the shul is, how far you have to walk to get there, but I do believe that sometimes the better thing to do is save your kids from themselves/edit yourself even if you prefer not to.* If you agree at all, then the disagreement is where we draw the lines.

Personally, I would tell my kids that I let them play Batman on Shabbos, but not go to shul that way. Except for Purim. However, if I would see someone else walk in with her child dressed as Batman, I could totally see smiling at the mother in a way that I would hope conveys what a great mother she is. Whether that mother walked in with her child relaxed and happy, or beleaguered having been beaten into submission.

*ETA: I just read singleagain's post earlier on this page. I'm also thinking societal standards. Just sometimes. Maybe.

Batman is four and has been fighting bad guys for about 6 months now.

I agree in theory that some (many?) societal standards are not worth fighting against. I find though that when my values and societal standards clash, my values often win. I'm not saying this is good, or correct (remember, my original post was not about the rights and wrongs of wearing sandals in Lakewood, but asking what people might think if they see it on the street) but it is what tends to happen.

Batman is a good example. I have two children with developmental delays. I've talked about the challenges of raising these precious children in other posts. It's challenging in many ways. Perhaps because of my experiences with children who struggle with representative play, imagination, development of ideas in play, I deeply value pretend play in any form. Watching my four year old throw himself into being Batman fills me with awe and joy; I know from some of my other children all the thousands of developmental tasks that need to align in order for this to happen, and it's a marvel to me that he is able to become Batman, all on his own. He can imagine himself being someone else, and still hold onto his sense of who he is. He can tolerate the feeling of the mask over his face. He can develop a story line (he's batman, serving cholent to poor people) introduce conflict (a badguy comes and eats it all) and stay regulated and calm while he solves the problem (If I remember this story line correctly, it ended with a penguin, his baby brother, 'freezing' the bad guys). I know how valuable this pretend play is for his social, emotional, behavioral development. Next to all this, bucking the societal norm of going to shul dressed in your best just doesn't seem so important to me. Not right or wrong, but just not important enough to put a stop to something I see as very valuable.

Last edited by DVOM on Fri, Jul 14 2017, 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:34 am

DVOM wrote:

Like I said, if I would see you and your Batman in shul, I'd think, what a good mother. Now I know, what a good mother.