I Am Very Disturbed by This Gemara

rednavy

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:11 pm

fiji wrote:

I don't think imamother is the right forum for this question. In Judaism we encourage learning and questioning, but asking a question on an obscure piece of gemara to women (who for the most part don't learn gemara) And titling the thread "this gemara displeases me" seems inappropriate to me. The question is 100% valid but should be asked to someone who can actually answer the question properly, like a rav.

I disagree. The sentiment that s-x is meaningful/spiritual and women are human beings with hearts and minds often seems to be blatantly contradicted in Judaism and this is just one example. As Jewish women, facing texts such as this one is a problem.

Keeping the apparent misogyny of Torah 'between you and your rabbi' I.e. under wraps doesn't do anyone any favors. It's important to discuss this thoroughly, openly, and to try to understand it from a more progressive perspective.

It seems horrifying to me and I am following this thread to see what people have to offer.

marina

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:43 pm

Faigy86 wrote:

I actually remember learning/discussing in school at some point that for Jews it is more complex because of the mitzvas aseh of chuppa and kiddushin, but for non-Jews - one night stands are totally fine because intention to be married or divorced is enough.

How does one night stand work w intention to be married? Those don't usually go together. Or is it Rav's style of marriage, for one day only? Confused

marina

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:46 pm

fiji wrote:

I dk, we discuss everything else here that we are not experts on.

And also maybe someone is an expert.

And it's not your average rav who will know or care to answer this.

gp2.0

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:55 pm

marina wrote:

So you're interpreting this as a jokey hypothetical? That's interesting, but the discussion that follows is about how these Rabbis could do that if the women hadn't toiveled and the explanation is that the rabbis alerted the women ahead of time, so they could dunk in the mikvah beforehand.

That makes it seem like a real thing, not a hypothetical, doesn't it?

Not necessarily. It would be continuing the metaphor like so:

Q: wouldn't the townspeople already have known that famous people were coming before they arrived?
A: yes people would have been talking about them and planning for their arrival before they arrived

marina

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:03 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I'll tell you, this is a stretch. It's possible, but there's really no reason for the gemara not to say this straight out.

What if the guy is famous? Well, if he's famous, everyone will know he's the dad.

Plus that doesn't even make any sense, unless we assume that it's acceptable for famous pple to do as they please and everyone will be super excited to have them father their children. And there's no shame in this.

I guess that's what bothers me the most. However you read this, there's no shame in it.

Faigy86

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:05 pm

marina wrote:

How does one night stand work w intention to be married? Those don't usually go together. Or is it Rav's style of marriage, for one day only? Confused

Being unmarried at the time of the discussion, I had kind of just assumed that the term 'married' was supposed to just be a clean catch all for the purpose of teenage discussion and that no long term commitment was required but I really don't know.

gp2.0

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:08 pm

Now let's assume the story IS meant to be taken literally, and view it through the lens of history.

Marrying a Talmid Chacham, especially a famous one, is a privilege and an honor. When viewing it through a modern lens it seems to make a mockery of marriage. But consider that there were probably women who had a hard time getting married, and becoming famous by marrying someone famous may have helped them find a long term marriage later, if only because people spoke about them, and maybe because people (living in superstitious times) wanted the holiness to rub off on them.

Considering all this would have been voluntary, I don't have an issue with it even it was literal.

marina

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:12 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I'm sure the women got something out of it, otherwise they wouldn't have volunteered.

But still- it doesn't make a mockery of marriage, it makes a mockery of 5ex. It's not relations, it's not intimacy, it's just a release. And then I move on to the next city.

So women can't have more than one guy b/c you don't know who the father is (unless he's famous?) but guys can have many women, because they will all get pregnant from him? That's the entire ethics of what 5ex is supposed to mean fundamentally?

marina

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:14 pm

tichellady wrote:

I don't have a real answer and these are all good questions. I do think that one way to look at it is similar to how humanity's views on slavery, female rights and human rights have changed and evolved over time hopefully to a more moral place, where we truly see the spark of the divine in each individual regardless of his/her social status. I think our views on sxuality have become more elevated.

On the other hand sometimes I feel like maybe we are setting up ourselves for disaster and expecting monogamy to work for everyone is not so realistic

But what about the people who think morality never changes and comes from the Torah?

gp2.0

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:26 pm

marina wrote:

So this gives a woman (who might not otherwise have it) a chance to have a legitimate child that will not only be recognized as legitimate but will also be the son of a major talmid chacham (and probably monetarily supported to boot.) what's the downside?

SixOfWands

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:30 pm

marina wrote:

Not quite.

Men shouldn't have a wife in every port because what if the kids marry one another inadvertently. Because, well, there are a lot of Shlomos out there. And maybe he only said that he was Shlomo when he married his one night wife, and he's really Shmuel.

That doesn't apply to gedolim, however, because if your father is a gadol, everyone will know it, and everyone knows that Rav Gadol is Rav Gadol, not Shloimie the Baker from Cleveland.

But apart from the issue of the kids marrying, that Gemara doesn't seem to think there is any issue with One Night Marriage. (Anyone else think this sounds like ancient Sacred Prostitution?)

Otrox

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:31 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Lol! Like a sperm donor for the women who didn't marry and still wanted to have kids.
That's a new spin on things. The rabbis were the sperm banks of old.

Otrox

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:34 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Then the guy is indebted to pay the ksuba or support the new wife.
Maybe the women actually got the better end of the deal.

marina

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:48 pm

trixx wrote:

Marina are you part of the Facebook group gd save us from your opinion? That's a better forum for this discussion

This is a good idea. I'm in that group, but a little nervous about it. First of all, no anonymity. Second of all, they have all these rules about how to post what kind of posts etc. But it's a good idea, maybe I'll try there.

marina

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 3:50 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Intimacy is cheapened. That's the downside and that's what bothers me about this gemara.

SixOfWands

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 4:04 pm

Otrox wrote:

Then the guy is indebted to pay the ksuba or support the new wife.
Maybe the women actually got the better end of the deal.

"Come have z3x with me for one night. Afterwards, I'll pay you some money, and never see you again."

Sounds more like something that the employees at the Mustang Ranch do, than something for frum women.

chicco

Tue, Aug 08 2017, 4:30 pm

First of all, tosfos says the majority of times these marriages were never consummated.

It seems that this was done more as a reassurance that if a Rabbi was in the town, there was a woman available to him. Generally, the knowledge itself was good enough, and the acting on it wasn't necessary.

Also, this was not a prevalent practice. There were not many to do it.

They didn't force anyone to go through with it, and the women who volunteered must have felt some reason to be interested. They also prepared.

I think it's important to look at the general context to figure out what the gemera is coming to tell us.