How to broaden his horizons

smiley:)

Thu, Oct 18 2007, 12:43 pm

My son is 2. He is very very quiet and shy. We have never left him with a babysitter for several reasons. When I had the baby he stayed with my parents while I was in labor (which we never did before) and then my husband was with him for the rest of my hospital stay.

I just started having a teenager come once or twice a week for 1/2 - 1 hr... Not clear yet, to help him learn some Hebrew before he goes to gan next yr. We started tonight and for now she is talking in English just to get him used to her. He was excited for her to come and she was going to take him to the park but just when she left he started crying. And he wont stop. So I went along and walked way behind them... he came back once in a while but he was really fine with her. Now if I dont go along he'll just keep crying. Now, even though I was far away he was fine. But next week he'll assume that he can get me to come along again. He is very into routine - if it happened once it will happen again. Now I dont mind going along. I have nothing else important to do, but I want him to get the confidence to go. how do I get him out of the "routine" of me going and not have him cry the whole time? He is NOT the type of kid to calm down. He likes getting worked up and will keep at it till he gets a reaction.

smiley:)

Thu, Oct 18 2007, 1:09 pm

Kmelion wrote:

He gets all worked up because he knows the routine - he gets worked up and you come running.

Often when kids are dropped off at a babysitter's or nursery, they'll spend a few minutes crying but then they'll get distracted by the toys or with coloring or any number of things.

I would talk to the babysitter and tell her to take him to the park and try to distract him by going on the swings or the slide or something. If he's still hysterical after 15-20 minutes, she should bring him home.

You however, should stay home.

I dont come running. Ive tried sending him out with my old neighbors. He doesnt calm down. I know it sounds crazy but ppl dont believe it till they see it. If it wasnt this way I'd know what to do too. I've been a preschool teacher and know normal attachment issues.

Nicole

Thu, Oct 18 2007, 1:55 pm

There was an article in Binah Magazine about this a while back. Don't know if you read it. The author spoke about trust bet. mom and child. She was against the idea of mom's sitting in the back of the room on the first day of preschool and then "sneaking out" when the child was occupied. She said that this teaches the child mistrust of the parent. Instead, she advocated sitting for as long as needed, (in your case, following along far behind for a few days) until the child is really really confident in the new location. At that point, she said the mom should approach child and say, "Yitzi, Mommy's going to go now, and you'll stay and play with Morah Sarah and the kinderlach. And later, after lunch and snack and a little more playing, Mommy will come pick you up and take you home, and we'll all eat supper with Daddy. I love you. "(kiss)
Honestly, dd is only a year and not all that attached to me (much to my chagrin! Confused

) so I don't really know if this would work in actuality. But she was all for being that for the child as long as he needs, because if you sneak away it will just realize his fears- that mommy might leave him alone with nothing to do about it.
Do you think there's any way this would work? Or would it just become another "routine" for him?

smiley:)

Thu, Oct 18 2007, 3:57 pm

Thanks so much for your posts, Nicole and Tamiri.
Though I would never ever leave him without telling him, I appreciate that you posted about that because it is of value for everyone to hear. As a teacher, playgroup leader etc I always had parents try to do that, and as I got older and bolder I wouldnt let them. I think it is SO SO SO dishonest, causes your kid to lose trust in you, causes them to feel insecure and there is no reason for doing it other than that you dont want to deal with their crying etc. At best they wont react for the 2 seconds that they dont see you running away and then they flip out right after, and a stranger has to deal with it. And at worst it can cause a lot of hard feelings and lack of trust. It also sort of sends a message to your kid that you can outsmart them, and they are pretty powerless.

I have already thought abt when he goes to gan. I wouldnt have a problem either coming in for parts of the 1st x amount of time or being able to be reached if they need me to come in.

The thing is he is a very intense kid and it is sometimes hard to find ways to channel it. He knew I came this week so now whenever it is... next week, 2 wks from now etc, he will throw the fit. I do think maybe I will be around still for let's say at least 2 more times. But he usually is not comfortable with ppl and he was fine with her. I also usually dont approve of babysitters etc so quickly. I really like her. Sometimes they go to the park together other times they will be home. I will most likely be home too the whole time (where will I go in 1/2 hr without a car?!) But I think he should learn to be ok only with her during that time. I just dont know how to deal with the intensity and getting him out of the routine of me being there. Look, if he was in gan with 30 kids, when it's in a new place, new teacher, all the kids when he is not even used to playing with 1 kid I think he will need a lot more leeway. Like this I think it is doable for him. The question is how long I should give him leeway here, and how to get him comfortably away from me but know he has my support if needed.

How does one deal when it comes to preschool as I said with a LOT of kids and on the intellectual level he is way beyond most of his peers (as outsiders tell me) but socially and in these types of ways he is so under-ready??

smiley:)

Fri, Oct 19 2007, 1:08 am

My son talks up a storm. He doesnt stop. Ppl are surprised at his vocabulary. He doesnt play much with other kids. All the kids are out during the day, then he naps in the afternoon. It the park he sorta plays by himself. He doesnt like it when other kids come by but I really believe it is bc kids here are very aggressive. He doesnt know what it means to hit. Other kids invade his personal space, hit, have unpredictable behavior etc. When I have a neice or nephew over (if they are calm) and he has time to open up, he will - slowly. If adults are warm he will SLOWLY warm up. Otherwise he will stay away from them.
If a stranger says hello and he gets good vibes he'll start talking to them. if not he sort of blocks them from the picture. If they give him a toy - well if it's a car or truck he'll take it right away and most of the time thank them. If its a toy he doesnt care for and a person he doesnt care for he wont take it. If it's a toy he doesnt care for but a person he does, he will likely take it. He'll talk to especially adults he doesnt know if they show interest in him - not just if they sit there like a rock.
So what did you do when he had to go to preschool? I am even willing to keep him home next yr - and I think it could do well for him in some ways. But #1 he needs to learn to be ok around ppl - though the options here are crazy- a 30 something kid class, or nothing. #2 he so needs new things to learn. He is bored and soaks up anything we teach him.

gryp

Fri, Oct 19 2007, 10:42 am

Your son sounds much better socially off than mine was. At 2 if an adult approached him and said hello, he would burst into tears. shock

If I was around he would completely freeze up with a stranger around, he would stand like a statue and stare. We've gotten to the point that he trusts adults and will talk to them, but he can't handle more than 3 or 4 kids at a time around for too long (maybe 20 minutes) or he starts throwing tantrums. One on one, he plays very nicely and talks a bit but not freely.
If there's too many kids in a room for him or on the playground, he'll just stand in the corner. He doesn't trust kids.

When he started school a little older than age 3, it was pretty difficult. He wouldn't ask teachers if he could go to the bathroom so we ended up with a few accidents. It was pretty horrible for him, to be trained for over a year with no accidents and then to have to wet himself. Crying

The transition into school itself wasn't terrible because he had 3 absolutely fantastic teachers. They helped a ton- holding him when he cried the third day (he didn't cry the first two), putting him on their laps to sit in the circle, and much more. He got very attached to one of them and we call her his "second Mommy."

What I would suggest, I wish I would have done this, if you know who his teacher is going to be, ask her to come once or twice for a home visit before school starts. Even seeing her on the street a few times helps a bit.
You also don't have to send him every day. I would keep my son home once or twice a week for a while because I noticed that he was happier without having to deal with the pressure from being around so many other kids every single day. The teacher wasn't thrilled but it's not her choice to make.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Oct 19 2007, 11:53 am

WIth my son who takes a while to adapt to a new social setting, I stay with him for a few minutes. I then make an excuse when he is calm, even if he is still shy, that I need to feed the baby, get something from a different room, or whatever and I will be back in a few minutes.
I then leave and do return in a few minutes. He learns that I am still around, he can trust me to come back, and the world doesn't end if he is with new people without me there. It takes time, and I stay away for longer amounts of time. I don't have specific time intervals but I use my common sense, and this helps him adjust.

smiley:)

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 9:36 am

GR -
There are times at which adults scare my son (though I usually could really see why!) And times that he will freeze. But if the person is warm he will relate to them no problem. My son isnt great with any kids but that, I believe is because #1 he hasnt been around them much, #2 the kids he was with were very wild and overbearing.I would too have felt stifled.
In the park he wont go on a slide if any one else is there. He wont climb if other ppl are there.
I think it's really nice for a teacher to hold a kid on their lap when thye are sad but I wonder if it is any comfort for the kid - a stranger holding them. I'd be freaked out if I was the kid.
I will try to do what you said about having the teacher come over. It could help a lot. I have to see what the logistics are at the time.... But ideally its a great idea. I dont think thye have an option here to not send every day. I would LOVE if they had that.
GR, I wish our son's could get together!!!!

Hashem Yaazor-
That would , or might work for a kid with normal attachment issues. THis is beyond. It's a little nuts! :-)

Imaonwheels

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 10:19 am

If there are 30 kids in the class then there will be 2 for sure, in most cases 3 adults. I have taught in a much harder setting. In yishuvim we often have mixed age gans - kids from 3-5 in one class. That has its pluses and minuses.

Your child sounds like a pretty normal 2 yr old to me. Likes routine and order, choosy with whom he'll open up to. Two's are intense by definition.

I noticed when I taught gan a marked difference between kids who had been in daycare in a maon and those who stayed with Mom, GM or homesitter. Those who were in maon acted more confident, knew the routines but were more clingy to Mom. Those who had been at home had a much easier time separating. But children are different and there are exceptions.

I personally would not leave the home just to leave them alone, but I would not follow either. Though once or twice is not critical. You yourself said he may start to feel that this is what is intended, that Mommy will never be where I can't see her. You have stayed with your child enough that he will not think you are abandoning. When you leave and come back you are reinforcing the idea that while he may have to be with the sitter for a short time Mommy will always come back and get him or the sitter will always return him to his parents.

There are rare children who do not adjust at 3, very,very rare. The toys, colors, sounds and stimulations are fascinating for a child. First children often have better vocabularies as they relate primarily to adults until other siblings arrive.The gannenet also has training and experience in calming the apprehensive child. I would give her a lot of trust on when to quit staying. Here in Israel the first day is llie 8-10, the next day 8-11. 8-12 and then finally the full 8-1:30. 3 yr olds get a lot of individual attention.

It also helps to know that the fear centers around separation and not fear of the gan. I had a ds who was the hardest at letting go of me. I started having my dd take him on her way to the bus. It was no big emotional deal to separate from Mommy to big sis and no big deal to leave sis to go to gan. The problem stopped the same day. I cannot stress enough the powerful reinforcement, especially for a child who is comforted by routine to know that every day when Mommy brings him to gan she will come back and get him at the proper time.

Tamiri

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 10:43 am

Smiley, the way you describe your son sounds EXACTLY like one of the little boys in last year's play group. He is verybright and articulate and has been chatting in two languages (dad is Israeli) since I know him, when he was 2. He knows EVERYTHING. His mother took him to chugim so he knows science and animals and G-d knows what else. Every color, every shape etc. since he was so little He is also nursing, in tandem, at the age of 4. HOWEVER he has big social issues, which is why his mom pulled him out of gan after a week last year, when he was 3. The thing is, viewing them, I never know who has the bigger issues: Mom or the kid. Does he feed on her anxiety of letting go? Or he is just "that way". As I wrote, there were several kids in the group last year who could not let go. Many of them were still nursing at 3 and 4. Their mothers did not push them, but also were leashed to them until they went to bed at night. As the poster above me comments, USUALLY kids who are at home with mom have an EASIER time separating from her and are not as clingy, which was not the case with this group. That has been my own experience with my kids (5). I did do play group with these moms last year but at some point it became uncomfortable for me to be around them. They were discussing paying 400 or more shekels a month for a 1 day a week special program where they would stay until the kids did not need them anymore. I thought that was crazy - to pay AND to stay. They were willing to do anything to ensure a totally benign environment to ease their kids into the "real world". It wasn't for me because I believe life is tough and the kids have to learn that, so I left the group. My own son, who was far more outgoing at 2.5 than the group was at 3.5 and above did not need such special attention.
You may want to look at your own behavior: what are you projecting to him, how are you helping him advance socially (I would stop thinking that all the hitting and running-around kids are davka the odd ones.....) and how are you helping him detach from you. He can probably read your body language and know what you are feeling regards to his peers, so he may just be a continuation of your projections. You need to let him know that it's all right to be a part of things.
Don't get me wrong: my own is still at home at the age of nearly 3 because I can't imagine putting him in 6 days/week 5 hours/day with 35 kids and just 2 adults. I am not thrilled with the whiny kids who come to the gina after a long day in gan, who have to be stuffed with bamba and sweets to shut them up so Mom can talk to her friends. I am sure my son would be fine in a gan, it just seems cruel to me. I really exhaust myself with an alternative, which is our little play group. The whole world thinks I am crazy, but I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping a pitzkel "safe" for a little while longer.
Do what is best for your son, but examine yourself while you are at it so he won't be an odd-ball later on. It's very important to fit into society here.....
(from one who doesn't give much of a hoot, but that's the way it is)

gryp

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 11:46 am

Smiley, I wouldn't worry much about his social skills, as long as he's talking and will open up to people who are warm to him.

If he's a bit scared of other kids, like you described on the playground- my son does the exact same thing- the most important and best thing you can do is playdates. Obviously you'll start off in your own home or even in the park with a friend, and eventually he can graduate to going to other kids' homes. (My son is nowhere near that at age 4, and lots of kids aren't, I don't think that's a problem.)

Quote:

I think it's really nice for a teacher to hold a kid on their lap when thye are sad but I wonder if it is any comfort for the kid - a stranger holding them. I'd be freaked out if I was the kid.

My son didn't cry until the third day so he knew his teaches a little by then. But that's when he learned to trust an adult besides his parents. Btw, I was watching from the window the entire time, I would have gone in if he hadn't calmed down. And I told the teachers to call me if he starts up again and won't be calmed down.

Also, when my son first started school he needed everything to be the same every single day. The teachers realized that and prepared him a few minutes before if they wanted to do something new.
He freaked out the first few times they went out to play on the playground. If I would have realized beforehand, I would have shown him the playground by orientation. Confused

He also had some trouble eating the lunch in school. It was a combination of not being sure he's allowed to and being shy to eat in front of other people. He finally ate lunch the second week of school, one of the teachers finally convinced him.

I also did what Hashem Yaazor wrote. I left my other son in the hallway while I brought my older one in, and kept going out to check if he was okay then came back to reassure my older one that I was still there. Finally I told him I'm going shopping and I'll pick him up after lunch. He cried a bit on the third day, cried again two days later, and that was it. He's gone happily every day since.

Btw, Tamiri wrote about the cycle of mothers feeding their child's anxiety. In a sense it's true, but obviously a mother has to protect her child from something she knows is scary for him. And that can reinforce tha child's thinking that it really is scary. It's a hard call, when to sit back and let the child be and when to help him overcome his fears.

smiley:)

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 11:53 am

Ima-thats not so comforting to me that there are 2 adults. I would have assumed there would be at least 3. And I dunno but I was also a teacher, a playgroup leader etc and I didnt see that the kids who were home necessarily had it any easier or harder than anyone else. It depended on the kid.
I've seen plenty of 2 yr olds. I know intense and I know INTENSE.

"The gannenet also has training and experience in calming the apprehensive child."
And when she has 30 something kids how much time does she have to spend on ONE?

"It also helps to know that the fear centers around separation and not fear of the gan."
For some yes, for some like mine it is both.

Tamiri-
Thanks for the story but it doesnt apply so much. I do fear for letting him go but in situations now I am not fearful in every situation and he doesnt get it passed on to him in more than half the situations. If a kid is wild and throwing plates off the table I do keep him near me. He has had plenty of situations though where I encouraged him to play with other kids, to have htem over or to go to them and he doesnt want and is nervous.
I can assure you I didnt nurse him to 3 or 4... even 2 or 1! (He had nursing problems!)
I woludnt ease a kid in like hte mothers you describe but I have no problem easing them in in other ways. I also disagree that kids have to acclimatize at age 2 or 3 to their "tough" world.
I am projecting things onto him that I believe should be projected, and projected positive things likewise when I believe that is necessary. I dont have to encourage him to play with kids that will rip his hair out if he so much as touches their toys.
And sorry but I do think the hitting and running around ones are the odd ones. That is not a natural behavior. I'd much prefer my child to be a bit socially awkward and nice to others etc then to be a juvenile delinquent.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 12:30 pm

In most cases there are 3 adults. Ask at the gan. We have 2 in small yishuv gans with less than 20 kids. Charedi gans are more likely to have more staff. If you are in Tel Zion most of the kids will be 1st or 2nd in the family as the bulk of the yishuv are young couples. I have been a gannenet here, they are trained for what they get. In the city that means usually at least 30 kids. She does not need to spend all day with one and it wouldn't be healthy if she did. She has to be smiling and pleasant, know what kids can and cannot do at the age she has, if a kid needs a special attention she has to be alert to notice and give it to him. Gan is a misgeret and not home. It is meant to be less one on one and more getting used to schedule, sharing, waiting your turn, etc. How can a kid learn good midos if he has no chance to practice them by having to live with others.

Also, visit and register early. It gives you a chance to pick the one that best suits your needs.

Quote:

"It also helps to know that the fear centers around separation and not fear of the gan."
For some yes, for some like mine it is both.

This means you already visited a gan and saw he was scared of it even with you right next to him and knowing you were not leaving?

I don't believe that a child needs to acclimatize to a "tough" world.He should not lose the tremendous value of gan (I have accompanied 7 extremely different children of my own to gan)unless you have a very good reason. He does have to acclimatize himself to social situations and the fact that Mommy cannot be chained to him 24/7. The 1st step to putting HaShem in the center of our life is taking ourselves out. That goes much easier if done lovingly and gradually.

Another thing that may seem just technical is will he be going to gan (mamad) or gan/cheder (Aguda, Shas, Chabad or other charedi)? If the latter, he will be behind on learning to read. Five to six kids start Chumash. First graders need to know how to be in school, not gan. Again everything is easier when done gradually over 3 years instead of wham!