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-> Interesting Discussions
Zehava
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 Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:49 pm
| amother wrote: | just because you are wealthy doesn't mean you have to do these things. My grandfather was wealthy. He didn't want to be honored at dinners so he said no. My grandmother wanted to be president of an organization so she said yes. The problem is when you want people to like you. I would feel bad that people are upset at me, my husband on the other hand would tell them to go fly a kite.
And a lot of the "problems" you are mentioning would be prevented by not making your wealth obvious. People won't ask you to host teas if you don't have the space. You don't have to live in a large house if you don't want to. |
This only in reverse
I know the kinds of ladies whose full job is hosting teas. Sometimes they are rich but others aren’t even that well off. What they all have is a desperate need for admiration and social standing. I say if you do much want others to give you plaques and clap for you then go ahead and work for it! The sick and poor may as well benefit.
I know plenty wives of rich guys who’ve never hosted a tea or chaired an event or sat on a board. And I know plenty of ladies with very average income who are busy busy busy with events every night.
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amother
Vermilion
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:59 pm
Believe me, I'm very happy to be in the giving side .Every time I write a check, it's my biggest pleasure. We are rich, but we look regular. I drive a sienna, we have a regular nice Flatbush. My kids are well dressed but it's mostly from sales and gap.
My 1st wig was from a gemach, my first rent was paid by friends...Having a maid is a pleasure!
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amother
Forestgreen
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:00 pm
| pause wrote: | | This. All these money "problems" that people are describing are only problems if others know they have money. When rich people live simply, they don't have such kind of issues. |
Except that this is not the case. Ppl know they have money, at least in smaller communities because they are the ones giving large contributions to the schools, tomchei shabbos, and other community needs. Even when it's done quietly without putting ones name in journals or on buildings. Things do get known because the money has to come from somewhere. There's no staying under the radar whether one wants to or not.
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amother
Rose
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:06 pm
| amother wrote: | | Except that this is not the case. Ppl know they have money, at least in smaller communities because they are the ones giving large contributions to the schools, tomchei shabbos, and other community needs. Even when it's done quietly without putting ones name in journals or on buildings. Things do get known because the money has to come from somewhere. There's no staying under the radar whether one wants to or not. |
There are so many anonymous donors.
Our Shul keeps on getting anonymous donations. We all are trying to guess where it's coming from. A member of the shul, gave the money saying an anonymous donar donated it. That member lives a very poor lifestyle so we doubt it's his money.
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mommy3b2c
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:07 pm
| Fox wrote: | It's not a contest. If you feel that some of the responsibilities that come with wealth wouldn't be "problems" for you, then great. They are problems for many people.
Are there worse problems? Well, of course!
But this is like the old dog food advertisement: "My dog's bigger than your dog. My dog's bigger than yours. My dog's bigger 'cause he eats Purina. My dog's bigger than yours."
Someone can come along and say, "Oh, yeah? You think illness, lack of heat, a bad marriage, or infertility is a problem? What about a physical disability that prevents people from considering you for a shidduch in the first place?" or "At least you're married! I have all those problems and have never found my zivug! I'm facing them alone!"
When you start creating a hierarchy of problems, it's a never-ending cycle. Yes, money clearly makes some things easier. Other things, not necessarily. Telling someone who is busy throwing up because she has the flu or is newly pregnant . . . and is expecting 50 people in her home within a few hours that her "problems" don't meet your standard? Well, that's equally silly. |
I believe the title of this thread is more money, more problems. I didnt say that rich people don’t have problems. But being rich doesn’t give you more problems then being poor. It just doesn’t.
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amother
Rose
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:08 pm
| amother wrote: | Believe me, I'm very happy to be in the giving side .Every time I write a check, it's my biggest pleasure. We are rich, but we look regular. I drive a sienna, we have a regular nice Flatbush. My kids are well dressed but it's mostly from sales and gap.
My 1st wig was from a gemach, my first rent was paid by friends...Having a maid is a pleasure! |
It's refreshing to see someone appreciating their money. I think people who used to be poor and struggled, and then become rich appreciate it more.
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amother
Ecru
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:10 pm
I don't know if that's true. We've donated nicely to certain institutions in our small community, done the anonymous sponsoring thing. We don't get special phone calls and the regular please donate to our school phone calls we just say we'll think about it or whatever. The people who I see being considered "gvirim" are the ones who live in nice homes etc and donate publicly.
about saying that ladies do the teas for recognition, I wouldn't go that far, some people really do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they are god at organizing these things, like to do it and really want to help people. Lets not turn it in to a lacking on their part. It's ok to say this isn't for me, without deprecating those who are involved.
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amother
Ecru
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:12 pm
off topic but I'm really enjoying my freedom to post as amother  !
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amother
Royalblue
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:29 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | | I believe the title of this thread is more money, more problems. I didnt say that rich people don’t have problems. But being rich doesn’t give you more problems then being poor. It just doesn’t. |
I'm the OP and I have to agree... from reading all these answers, it seems that being rich doesn't make you have more problems, just different, and some aren't problems at all...
Having a big house so you are obligated to host people - who cares when you have a maid to clean and a chef to cook?
Managing the help? Please. That's not a real problem.
Having to dress impeccably because your in-laws give you the money to do so and therefore expect it? Having to buy a huge house with their down payment?  Not problems
So I guess the saying really just is for the poor to comfort themselves.
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doodlesmom
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:32 pm
It really depends what you are comparing to.
The extremely poor ones have big problems
The Tight but getting by have smaller problems
The getting by to the comfortable shouldn't have money problems
The rich and the wealthy again have problems stemming from money.
Even the stress of being responsible for the livelihoods of all those working under you is a big issue.
The feeling that you can never just quit your responsibilities is usually a much bigger issue with the wealthy than the poor or tight. They have much more to lose.
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sneakermom
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:44 pm
I have a cleaning lady once a week and like squishy brought up I do feel pressure to have things prepared and I do feel the lack of privacy. Maybe it's a personality thing.
When I first got married we lived on a shoestring budget. Our parents bought us new furniture and clothes and stuff. But from the day we married there was minimal cash coming in and so we lived incredibly simple.
I had no cleaning lady. I almost never bought new clothes. Sheital's lasted years. We never went on a real vacation. We had no car.
Yet there was small pleasures. Little baby outfits I got for dollars by this cheap store I found in manhattan. Eating pizza out with my husband here and there. Going on long walks together. Our apartment was fresh and newly painted and I loved the sunshine that came in from the windows. We also had great water pressure- so the shower felt awesome. We even watched thunder storms from our window, and saw the lightening zig zag across the sky.
But as the years went by it got so much harder. I really needed to look normal and I hated not having money for regular stuff. I wanted more money for my family. To take lessons, go to camp, therapy, nice clothes, braces. And never mind the biggy- we needed bigger living quarters. And I wanted to buy a house.
Both my husband and myself worked very hard to build up our income. Bh we are not rich but we are comfortable now. And we live in our own home. It's a blessing that I am grateful for. And I wish upon all klall yisroel.
But I do find that it brings different challenges. The challenge of saving versus spending. Holding back, just because it's good for character. Realizing that certain extras became the new norm and we depend on it now. Worrying we should be able to keep this standard. And yes...chasing more money. I used to not care about money at all. But I found the more I make the more I want. Which brings in the question of priorities. How do I maintain my old vision of priorities within this new circumstance.
And at the end of the day. None of us will commiserate that we didn't make enough money. But we might feel great contentment in remembering the time we spent with our kids, the good things we did and the difference we made in the world.
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amother
Forestgreen
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:59 pm
| amother wrote: | There are so many anonymous donors.
Our Shul keeps on getting anonymous donations. We all are trying to guess where it's coming from. A member of the shul, gave the money saying an anonymous donar donated it. That member lives a very poor lifestyle so we doubt it's his money. |
Doesn't really work that way. An 'anonymous donor' is not bringing in garbage bags full of cash. Checks are being written and someone has to collect them and deposit them.
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amother
Rose
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:05 pm
| amother wrote: | | Doesn't really work that way. An 'anonymous donor' is not bringing in garbage bags full of cash. Checks are being written and someone has to collect them and deposit them. |
Can still be anonymous. People can give a check coming from a gmach. Credit card payments can be given over the phone and you don't even need a name. Yes you can process a cc without the right name. It goes through. You can have just one person knowing about it who can keep a secret. I received an anonymous donation from someone to help me with my disabled child. No idea from whom. There was a middleman. But it's kept confidential.
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33055
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:25 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | | So give the cleaning lady less hours. But stop trying to convince people that cleaning ladies are a problem. |
You can't cut down on the hours of there is that much work. The house doesn't clean itself.
There's a cost to everything. Sometimes it is in time. Sometimes it is in money. Sometimes it is in a loss of control. In the case of a house, it is the time to maintain it and the loss of privacy.
If someone has a summer house, that's a wonderful thing, but can't you see the work and the maintenance could be overwhelming to some? None of the guests are driving up in the winter to make sure the place is ok. No one is opening it up for the summer or packing it up in the fall. They don't help with the weekend prep, nor do they help with the cleanup after.
I clean my summer house before Shabbos and do a light pickup for 20 minutes a day. I usually need some time Sunday to put the house in order. That's it. I have no help and spend a lot less time, and I enjoy it a lot more.
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33055
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:27 pm
| amother wrote: | | Can still be anonymous. People can give a check coming from a gmach. Credit card payments can be given over the phone and you don't even need a name. Yes you can process a cc without the right name. It goes through. You can have just one person knowing about it who can keep a secret. I received an anonymous donation from someone to help me with my disabled child. No idea from whom. There was a middleman. But it's kept confidential. |
You can't take a tax deduction that way.
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amother
Forestgreen
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:30 pm
| Squishy wrote: | | You can't take a tax deduction that way. |
Exactly. You don't give large sums haphazardly.
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amother
Brown
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:43 pm
this thread makes me sad.
simple question: do you believe in chazal, yes or no? if no, then sure. go be rich. if yes, chazal are REPLETE with references to the idea that "mo' money, mo' problems".
there are so many places where chazal emphasize how money drags a person away from his enjoyment in olam HAZEH, AND in olam habah. so it's bad in both worlds. now by all means, feel free to sell whatever propaganda you want on this website. it's a free country. tell me how times have changed. chazal were talking to a different dor. same tune, different topic.
but, but, IF you believe in chazal's wisdom, and that they had divine understanding of human psychology, as the vilna gaon, the steipler, the chazon ish, rav yisrael salanter, and COUNTLESS others testify to, then it's simple. chazal said it, so it's true.
work on trusting in chazal's wisdom, then you wont have to wonder if it's true.
yissachar and zevulun, say chazal, split their olam habah equally. rav yisrael salanter asks (I apologize, it might have been the alter. I heard this stuff at the shabbos table at a discussion some years ago) if they split olam habah equally, then what is the benefit of all of yissachars toil in torah? isn't toil in torah supposed to be the ultimate thing? he answers: in the next world they are equal, but not in this world. zevulun has the olam habah, but yissachar gets the olam habah AND the olam hazeh.
when rav yosef yoizel became the alter of novaradok he sold his business at a massive loss, because he said it is impossible to experience true bitachon while one is wealthy beyond the necessary means upon which to live.
one of the late acharonim once remarked (I forget who) that if you look at the machlokes in torah between the ketzos and nesivos, we usually pasken like the ketzos, or at least more often than the nesivos. he said, this was because the nesivos was wealthy, and therefore did not have to struggle as much in torah. because the ketzos was poor, he had to rely on hashem more, and was thus zoche to more siyata dishmaya in learning.
the chofetz chaim, when he ran the general store he and his wife owned, was meticulous to immediately close the store as soon as they made enough money for the day, so he would not have extra money. because the people of radin wanted the great zechus of supporting the chofetz chaim's business, they would rush to get there before he closed, this would often mean his store was only open an hour or two a day!
rav yisrael salanter once heard his wife bought a lottery ticket. he wanted to return it, but was told there was no mechanism for doing so, because no one ever wanted to. he immediately convened a bais din and made a neder that any winnings garnered from the ticket should be hefker.
were all these people idiots? I hope you answered god forbid. if not, check your value system.
in any case, there are plenty of places in gemara where reference to this is made as well, even if I cant remember any at the moment.
even if I cant remember the exact place I do remember a chazal who talk about a posuk that says, and im paraphrasing because its late and I dont remember, "the rich man suffers, and the poor man cries out to hashem" chazal interpret the posuk to mean, both the poor and the rich suffer equally in this world, but the poor man instinctively understands to cry out to hashem, which alleviates his pain, since reliance on hashem relieves one of worry and stress, and the rich man does not have that instinct.
the chovos halevovos makes a similar point in shaar habitachon, and many of the other mussar seforim do as well.
but I suppose the best reference might be shlomo hamelech. if I recall, he said of wealth and all its trappings in this world, "hevel havalim hakol hevel" and סוף דבר הכל נשמע את־האלהים ירא ואת־מצותיו שמור כי־זה כל־האדם. and if you dont trust him, I have nothing more to say.
so yes, "mo money mo problems", this is definitely true.
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amother
Rose
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:45 pm
| Squishy wrote: | | You can't take a tax deduction that way. |
How about if just one person knows about it and it's kept confidential?
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amother
Rose
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:55 pm
| amother wrote: | this thread makes me sad.
simple question: do you believe in chazal, yes or no? if no, then sure. go be rich. if yes, chazal are REPLETE with references to the idea that "mo' money, mo' problems".
there are so many places where chazal emphasize how money drags a person away from his enjoyment in olam HAZEH, AND in olam habah. so it's bad in both worlds. now by all means, feel free to sell whatever propaganda you want on this website. it's a free country. tell me how times have changed. chazal were talking to a different dor. same tune, different topic.
but, but, IF you believe in chazal's wisdom, and that they had divine understanding of human psychology, as the vilna gaon, the steipler, the chazon ish, rav yisrael salanter, and COUNTLESS others testify to, then it's simple. chazal said it, so it's true.
work on trusting in chazal's wisdom, then you wont have to wonder if it's true.
yissachar and zevulun, say chazal, split their olam habah equally. rav yisrael salanter asks (I apologize, it might have been the alter. I heard this stuff at the shabbos table at a discussion some years ago) if they split olam habah equally, then what is the benefit of all of yissachars toil in torah? isn't toil in torah supposed to be the ultimate thing? he answers: in the next world they are equal, but not in this world. zevulun has the olam habah, but yissachar gets the olam habah AND the olam hazeh.
when rav yosef yoizel became the alter of novaradok he sold his business at a massive loss, because he said it is impossible to experience true bitachon while one is wealthy beyond the necessary means upon which to live.
one of the late acharonim once remarked (I forget who) that if you look at the machlokes in torah between the ketzos and nesivos, we usually pasken like the ketzos, or at least more often than the nesivos. he said, this was because the nesivos was wealthy, and therefore did not have to struggle as much in torah. because the ketzos was poor, he had to rely on hashem more, and was thus zoche to more siyata dishmaya in learning.
the chofetz chaim, when he ran the general store he and his wife owned, was meticulous to immediately close the store as soon as they made enough money for the day, so he would not have extra money. because the people of radin wanted the great zechus of supporting the chofetz chaim's business, they would rush to get there before he closed, this would often mean his store was only open an hour or two a day!
rav yisrael salanter once heard his wife bought a lottery ticket. he wanted to return it, but was told there was no mechanism for doing so, because no one ever wanted to. he immediately convened a bais din and made a neder that any winnings garnered from the ticket should be hefker.
were all these people idiots? I hope you answered god forbid. if not, check your value system.
in any case, there are plenty of places in gemara where reference to this is made as well, even if I cant remember any at the moment.
even if I cant remember the exact place I do remember a chazal who talk about a posuk that says, and im paraphrasing because its late and I dont remember, "the rich man suffers, and the poor man cries out to hashem" chazal interpret the posuk to mean, both the poor and the rich suffer equally in this world, but the poor man instinctively understands to cry out to hashem, which alleviates his pain, since reliance on hashem relieves one of worry and stress, and the rich man does not have that instinct.
the chovos halevovos makes a similar point in shaar habitachon, and many of the other mussar seforim do as well.
but I suppose the best reference might be shlomo hamelech. if I recall, he said of wealth and all its trappings in this world, "hevel havalim hakol hevel" and סוף דבר הכל נשמע את־האלהים ירא ואת־מצותיו שמור כי־זה כל־האדם. and if you dont trust him, I have nothing more to say.
so yes, "mo money mo problems", this is definitely true. |
Chazal also say "Ani choshiv c'mes"
Being poor is like being dead.
The average person who says that money will make their life easier and less problems are referring to having money to cover all expenses easily and not having what they need. We can consider that poverty.
It also says that we need to give tzedakah to a person "for him to be able to live the lifestyle he is used to living..."
We see places in Torah that money is very important and the opposite causes problems
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Zehava
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Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:01 pm
| amother wrote: | this thread makes me sad.
simple question: do you believe in chazal, yes or no? if no, then sure. go be rich. if yes, chazal are REPLETE with references to the idea that "mo' money, mo' problems".
there are so many places where chazal emphasize how money drags a person away from his enjoyment in olam HAZEH, AND in olam habah. so it's bad in both worlds. now by all means, feel free to sell whatever propaganda you want on this website. it's a free country. tell me how times have changed. chazal were talking to a different dor. same tune, different topic.
but, but, IF you believe in chazal's wisdom, and that they had divine understanding of human psychology, as the vilna gaon, the steipler, the chazon ish, rav yisrael salanter, and COUNTLESS others testify to, then it's simple. chazal said it, so it's true.
work on trusting in chazal's wisdom, then you wont have to wonder if it's true.
yissachar and zevulun, say chazal, split their olam habah equally. rav yisrael salanter asks (I apologize, it might have been the alter. I heard this stuff at the shabbos table at a discussion some years ago) if they split olam habah equally, then what is the benefit of all of yissachars toil in torah? isn't toil in torah supposed to be the ultimate thing? he answers: in the next world they are equal, but not in this world. zevulun has the olam habah, but yissachar gets the olam habah AND the olam hazeh.
when rav yosef yoizel became the alter of novaradok he sold his business at a massive loss, because he said it is impossible to experience true bitachon while one is wealthy beyond the necessary means upon which to live.
one of the late acharonim once remarked (I forget who) that if you look at the machlokes in torah between the ketzos and nesivos, we usually pasken like the ketzos, or at least more often than the nesivos. he said, this was because the nesivos was wealthy, and therefore did not have to struggle as much in torah. because the ketzos was poor, he had to rely on hashem more, and was thus zoche to more siyata dishmaya in learning.
the chofetz chaim, when he ran the general store he and his wife owned, was meticulous to immediately close the store as soon as they made enough money for the day, so he would not have extra money. because the people of radin wanted the great zechus of supporting the chofetz chaim's business, they would rush to get there before he closed, this would often mean his store was only open an hour or two a day!
rav yisrael salanter once heard his wife bought a lottery ticket. he wanted to return it, but was told there was no mechanism for doing so, because no one ever wanted to. he immediately convened a bais din and made a neder that any winnings garnered from the ticket should be hefker.
were all these people idiots? I hope you answered god forbid. if not, check your value system.
in any case, there are plenty of places in gemara where reference to this is made as well, even if I cant remember any at the moment.
even if I cant remember the exact place I do remember a chazal who talk about a posuk that says, and im paraphrasing because its late and I dont remember, "the rich man suffers, and the poor man cries out to hashem" chazal interpret the posuk to mean, both the poor and the rich suffer equally in this world, but the poor man instinctively understands to cry out to hashem, which alleviates his pain, since reliance on hashem relieves one of worry and stress, and the rich man does not have that instinct.
the chovos halevovos makes a similar point in shaar habitachon, and many of the other mussar seforim do as well.
but I suppose the best reference might be shlomo hamelech. if I recall, he said of wealth and all its trappings in this world, "hevel havalim hakol hevel" and סוף דבר הכל נשמע את־האלהים ירא ואת־מצותיו שמור כי־זה כל־האדם. and if you dont trust him, I have nothing more to say.
so yes, "mo money mo problems", this is definitely true. |
Propaganda?
Are we trying to convince people to become rich?
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