Never thought I’d be one of those mothers

tweek

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 9:58 am

I can't believe the fact that so many people here are giving the OP a hard time for FEELING what she is feeling. She came on here to vent and express her sadness, not to say that she will do anything to disturb the simcha.

I always thought this was one of the therapeutic aspects of a forum like this. It’s a safe way to feel validated without having to do anything to hurt anyone.

Why would people give her a hard time for feeling what she is feeling? As long as she is not acting on it, she’s a hero in my opinion!

iyar

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:04 am

amother wrote:

Cynical? Our children come first, they are our primary consideration - that is our obligation and duty! If the primary won't be affected, we can then move on to the secondary (considering our parents and the like). Putting our children before anyone and anything else is the essence of motherhood.

This is a very strong post. I'm curious, do you also put your children's needs above your husband's? We go through a lot of pain just to get our kids to their first breaths. We do a lot for our kids and there's no denying it. But this centrality of children in our lives - I'm wondering if it's like that for most of us?
There happens to be a mitzvah to respect parents. There's none similar towards kids, though we are obligated to teach them Torah and provide for them when they're very young.
Do you feel in general that children's needs trump parents', spouse's and your own needs?
That's aside from the question of are you so sure this baby will end up happier named Yossi than Avi? And are you seeming to be a great mother putting baby's needs at the forefront when there might be some selfish motivation hiding underneath?

tigerwife

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:09 am

tweek wrote:

I agree 100%. I've seen emotions way uglier than this present themselves in real life. OP is commendable for venting out all of hurt feelings here and keeping her mouth shut to her daughter. She wasn't asking for advice on how to convince her daughter to use her father's name. She was expressing her pain here so that the feelings get out and she can pull herself together in real life. Whether or not you think her pain is valid is completely besides the point.

amother

Teal

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:17 am

amother wrote:

Again, your personal situation doesn't account for others. Just because your family members understand, doesn't mean others do. Those family members who don't understand, also consider the parents 'selfish'.

Just that there is even the thought that parents putting their children first can be considered selfish, is beyond understanding. Like I said in the above post, if your wish is to show Hakaras Hatov to your parents, there are other ways to do it. Putting your child comes first, showing Hakaras Hatov comes AFTER that.

Don't you realize that when you are thinking about using a name as Hakaras Hatov, you are actually thinking about YOURSELF? That I, me-myself and I, can now use this innocent baby as means for ME to do something nice.

(edited)

Sorry I lost you after the first paragraph. How does naming a child after someone put the child's needs second? We're talking about regular names here. I can't make heads or tails of this rant, sorry.

amother

Coral

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:27 am

iyar wrote:

There is no one answer to your question - Trekking through life comes with constant consideration of finding the right balance. Moderation is the key, consistent extremes in any direction is generally not the way to go. Some situations require putting the spouse first, many situations require putting the kids first and all situations are truly dependent on the factors on hand.

But in this situation, naming a child, it is quite apparent that the baby is to be the primary consideration. And yes, in most situations, my young childrens' needs trump my parents. That is my Halachic and motherly obligations. That doesn't mean I can negate my parents' needs, all it means that I need to find a secondary way to try to honor them.

Additionally, if my motherly instincts are telling me that this child will be happier be named Yossi than Avi, then I have to trust that. If I can't decide between the two, and I don't think it will make a difference, then I can begin considering secondary issues on hand, I.e. my parents preferences, etc.

I can't say that I've reached a level of complete selflessness and pure motivations. I am a continuous work of progress and am trying to reach that goal.

Miri7

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:28 am

OP, your pain is completely understandable. That said, you’ve come so far for the bris of this new baby boy. His name is parents to give and there is not much you can do to change that. As tigerwife said, it was so good of you to vent your pain here and not to your daughter

I would do my best to just focus on this new beautiful grandson, and you can quietly give him your own private bracha that he should have all the wonderful qualities that your father had

Regardless of his name and name sake, you can look for reflections of your father in this baby’s neshama. Try to get past your hurt and enjoy your new grandson. Mazal tov

amother

Coral

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:31 am

iyar wrote:

There happens to be a mitzvah to respect parents. There's none similar towards kids, though we are obligated to teach them Torah and provide for them when they're very young.
Do you feel in general that children's needs trump parents', spouse's and your own needs?

Once you marry and leave your parent's home, your primary obligation is to your spouse and kids. Yes, your parents needs come secondary. That doesn't mean I am not respecting them. I can put my spouse and children first, and still respect my parents.

amother

Coral

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:34 am

amother wrote:

If my intuition is telling me one thing, and my parents are pressuring me to choose another, then ignoring my God-granted motherly intuition is putting my child second.

cnc

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:34 am

tweek wrote:

I agree with you.

amother

Teal

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:43 am

amother wrote:

If my intuition is telling me one thing, and my parents are pressuring me to choose another, then ignoring my God-granted motherly intuition is putting my child second.

Sorry, you're being ridiculous.
If I decided to call my son Yossi and then realize that my mother will be happy with Chaim and change to that because I want to make her happy then it's my G-d granted intuition that is making me change my mind.

That doesn't negate from the fact that it's the parent's choice, but your line of argument about putting your kids first doesn't have any basis to it.

amother

Coral

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 10:51 am

amother wrote:

Right back at you. If your statement were to hold water, then every one of our actions is considered to be G-d granted intuition.

Intuition is an instinctive feeling, rather than conscious reasoning. You changing your mind to please your mother is not considered intuition. You are using conscious reasoning to choose your mother's preference over your own - over the God-granted intuition specifically reserved for new mothers.

iyar

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:00 am

amother wrote:

I’m not disagreeing with you.
The poster I was responding to said that our kids always have to be our top priority. I wasn’t sure where she meant to leave her spouse or herself.
It’s clear that my obligation to my spouse comes before obligation to my parents. I also know that I’m allowed to factor my personal needs into the equation.
Blanket statements about always putting this or that need first don’t work well. We have to use seichel to find the right balance and fthe right solutions. We also have to be honest with ourselves and discover what our true motivations are in any given situation.

amother

Teal

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:02 am

amother wrote:

How do you name your child without making a conscious choice? Did you name using the first idea that pops in your head because otherwise it's not the name that's meant to be? The G-d granted intuition is the name that you ultimately choose when making your decision. The reason it's different to other actions is because in this area specifically the ruach hakodesh element is there, it still doesn't change the natural decision-making process that will always take place. And yes, if you consider others' feelings (which isn't obligatory of course, but a very nice thing to do) then it plays into it as well.

amother

Coral

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:18 am

amother wrote:

If I hold my child in my hands and just feel that a certain name fits best, or if my husband and I choose a name we both feel is right - that can be attributed to intuition. But if I'm pressured to choose a name that we don't want for our child, because of the familial behavior and other reasons, that is called overriding intuition.

If no intuition or personal preference is at play, and I then decide to see how I can honor any one else's opinion in the matter, then I'm making a conscious decision. But intuition is not really in play here.

The natural decision making process for naming our babies, as per the Jewish custom and tradition, is when the parents name the child. It is not considered natural, when anyone else interferes.

Purple2

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:35 am

Thank you teal for your “ seicheldik” answers. Not sure why according to coral, including our parents input, advice, guidance and feelings negates this not yet born yet infants “feelings” and is not putting this child “First”.
Again how does it put the child second if I name him dovid instead of Moshe, as long as they’re both normal names. Obviously we’re also taking into consideration our own “intuition” but looking at the whole picture as well. I have a relative who doesn’t care about family names and I think my kids are way better off and her kids are losing out. She only wants new designer names for her kids. I think my kids feel so special and connected to the people they’re named after. They always ask about them, do projects on them and feel proud of who they’re named after. Her kids are missing that special connection. So now whose putting their kids “first”here?

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:45 am

Op here
Tomorrow is the bris imh and I have not said a word to either my daughter or sil today. I spent the entire day there helping her with the other kids, playing with them, bathing them , making pekilech for the vacht nacht, ironing the kids clothes for tomorrow etc. I’ve had a wonderful day and have tried my very best to put it out of my mind and focus on the here and now. I only have one daughter and we are very close.I have to think that she has a very good reason making this choice and it has nothing to do with me.

Thanks to everyone who have taken the time to write. I really appreciate reading all viewpoints and I feel very validated which I think is the most important thing in this situation.

I have to correct one of my previous posts stating that my dh wouldn’t say anything b/c he doesn’t want to rock the Boat. this morning he told me that last night when I went back to my apt to rest after shabbos he was alone with my daughter and sil. He said this:
‘ I’m not saying this to u on behalf of mommy. She doesn’t know I’m here and did not ask me to talk to u on her behalf. But I want to tell u that my father was a very very good man, but I’m sure he had his faults as he was after all human. Zaidy was there for me and mommy for many many years and he was both a father to me and mommy. It would not make me any happier if baby was named after my father as opposed to Zaidy. Of course it’s your baby, your choice. But I am equally happy both ways’
So thats it. I will be brave and happy (I hope) tomorrow morning and be there for my daughter as much as I can.

Will keep u posted

Iymnok

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:46 am

There is a mitzvah of kibbud horim till the day you die. There are times your dh comes first. Not your kids.
There are many mitzvos bein Adam l'chaveiro that can be utilized when naming a child. Intuition is not a mitzvah.
Making someone happy is very high on the list of considerations when naming a child.
Don't make it a "me or you" thing.

You are putting a lot into this intuition, ruach hakodesh, natural feel good stuff.
You are leaving out sechel. Which Baruch HaShem, OP and her daughter seem to have.

I wouldn't worry about things a postpartum woman says, she has a lot to deal with right now.

allthingsblue

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

You sound like a very special mother.
Your daughter is lucky.
May you and your family have many years of nachas from this child and all others!