Children of BTs/Geirim

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amother

Sapphire

Wed, Dec 27 2017, 11:28 pm

My DH and I are converts. Sometimes I think that "this experiment" will not end well. I.e. my kids and their kids won't be frum or Jewish. The entire rest of our family are not Jewish.

Of all the couples where both parents are BT's or geirim, I don't know any families where ALL the children have remained frum. Granted, my world is small and also based on where I live OOT, there aren't a lot of education opportunities for frum yidden. Not like NY. So, on some level, already there may be a selection bias going on.

elisheva25

Wed, Dec 27 2017, 11:46 pm

That doesn’t make sense . There are hundreds of families, where both parents are BTS and kids are frum. I am basing this on NY. There is an entire generation of teenagers/young adults whose parents are BTS . Yeah sure some kids go OTD. But that’s only some .

naturalmom5

Wed, Dec 27 2017, 11:46 pm

On a sad note, in Lakewood and Monsey, MANY MANY ffb families have children OTD.

On a more positive note, wherever you live, if you have internet access there are literally hundreds and hundreds of wonderful shiurim. Many are much better than the ones my husband and I could go to in person. There are constantly, new ones all the time.
Perhaps, these resources can help your family.

thnkuHashem2146

Wed, Dec 27 2017, 11:53 pm

I'm not sure that's the right way to look at things (so sorry not trying to offend) - I think you can be proud of your choices and proud of how you're raising your children and even those families that have a a kid that goes OOT (though many FFB parents have the same situation unfortunately) does not mean that they're failures or that they made the wrong choices. You and your husband made amazing choices and iyH your kids will follow, but even if it were to happen that one didn't turn out in the exact way you imagined, does not mean you are a failure.
Then again, I understand researching and/or asking other people in similar situations what difficulties they encountered and how they dealt with them (ie family or lack of family in the picture, etc) but not with a scared 'ohmygosh we're going to be failures' outlook.
Sorry I hope this is helpful not the opposite - I sincerely respect and admire all geirim and BTs!

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:05 am

I think I see more difficulty in raising a family frum when the community itself is not a yeshivish or chassidic community. There are a lot of outside influences that can't be helped.

DrMom

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:29 am

amother wrote:

I think I see more difficulty in raising a family frum when the community itself is not a yeshivish or chassidic community. There are a lot of outside influences that can't be helped.

OTOH, many of those communities are far less accepting of non-FFB/geirim than other communities. Especially when it comes to shidduchim.

Mamushka

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 1:21 am

amother wrote:

I think I see more difficulty in raising a family frum when the community itself is not a yeshivish or chassidic community. There are a lot of outside influences that can't be helped.

Being sheltered might be good for some but not for others.
I believe that if you keep the Torah in an honest way, your kids will feel it and B"H take it with them.
I also think that it's helpful for the kids to know, where parents came from and why they chose to become religious/Jewish.

oliveoil

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 1:32 am

One of the biggest issues for kids of BTs and geirim, in my experience, is that the parents are often more extreme/fanatic/pedantic than their peers FFB parents. This can very much alienate children.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 4:34 am

Children of gerim and baalei teshuva see that their parents chose a path different from the one in which they were raised. So it's more reasonable for them to consider all the options open to them.

My observation (I grew up frum) is that it's important to live in a community that values baalei teshuva and gerim. If you are a second class citizen and perpetually trying to fit in and minimize your past, I think the kids pick up a sense of shame and not belonging.

amother

Puce

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 5:13 am

amother wrote:

My observation (I grew up frum) is that it's important to live in a community that values baalei teshuva and gerim. If you are a second class citizen and perpetually trying to fit in and minimize your past, I think the kids pick up a sense of shame and not belonging.

Agree 100%. I'm a gioret, my dh was born Jewish. We live in a community where gerim are accepted very well - I'm not the only one. Our children have no problems so far. Though they haven't reached shidduch age yet.

What's important is that your kids have Jewish friends and peers throughout their childhood, preferrably frum ones. And that they have Jewish youth activities in their free time. You have to create a sense of belonging in them, they must feel that "Jewish" is where they feel most comfortable and at home.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:08 am

amother wrote:

I think that people today have easier ways to research communities than people had in the past and I also think that there are so many second generation BTs and geirim who are frum and who did not go OTD that there are people who will accept children of geirim and BTs for shidduchim. For example, I see Pittsburgh as a community that is very accepting and maybe even the majority is some shuls are BTs, children of BTs and geirim.

Not all FFBs are unwilling to allow their children to marry BTs either. That is a whole other discussion but there are those who are born frum but who don't have tons of connections among FFBs and who would gladly accept children of BTs.

I personally think that BT and geirim parents need to maximize the opportunity to give their children quality attention and to see frum family life as positive. That means that parents should always put their children first, before getting involved in other people's drama or community needs. Always remember that you don't have the outside family to help guide the children so you need to be that for your children and that may mean both discussing family size with the rav as well as staying away from situations where you could be taken advantage of in terms of your time and money. For example, if someone approaches you for a huge chunk of your time for a good deed for someone else and tells you some phrase like, "never say no to a mitzvah" remember that your mitzvah is to guide your own children.

Also try not to put your children in a school that is far and beyond your own personal level of observance because they and you will be made to feel inferior.

It also means having a healthy attitude rather than a pedantic attitude toward following halacha which also means having a relationship with a rav who understands the situations that BTs and geirim are in.

BH5745

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:10 am

DrMom wrote:

OTOH, many of those communities are far less accepting of non-FFB/geirim than other communities. Especially when it comes to shidduchim.

Well... why can't all the people who don't "feel accepted" by their current communities accept and marry each other? There are b"ah a lot of BT and Gerim, and many many more children among these parents b"ah, so that's an enormous pool of potential marriage partners, isn't it?

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:11 am

BH5745 wrote:

Indeed they do. There are tons of marriages between the children of BTs and geirim.

BH5745

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:20 am

southernbubby wrote:

Huh, I was always taught that there is no such thing as a "second generation" BT... I was taught that if one wasn't raised frum since the time of their birth, they are labeled BT. If one was raised frum their entire life, they are labeled FFB. A BT is a person who did tshuvah for their past ways and returned to Hashem. So I fail to see how someone whose parents followed the halachot before, during and after they were born and raised them in a frum home is a "second generation BT." What exactly should these children do tshuvah for?

What is a second generation ger? I was taught that the daughter of a gioress is born Jewish, she isn't born a gioress herself. And I also learned that the daughter of a Jewish women and ger husband is also born Jewish. So I don't see how anyone could possibly be a "second generation" ger/gioress either.

But let me pose this question: if one parent is a ger/gioress and the other a BT, is the child now a "second generation" ger/giroess or "second generation" BT? Rolling Eyes

DrMom

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:22 am

BH5745 wrote:

LOL. So they can commiserate together?

They could... but it makes more sense to find a place where you are respected for the tremendous commitment you made, rather than scorned and marginalized for it.

simcha2

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:26 am

BH5745 wrote:

Or better yet, why can't these communities that are not accepting of BT and gerim follow halacha with regard to this issue?

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:34 am

BH5745 wrote:

Because the term BT is misused to begin with. Don't we call the children of Holocaust survivors 'second generation'? Ask any child of a BT and you will be told that they were in a way korbonos for the way that their parents had been brought up. (I am waiting for the rotten tomatoes to be thrown.) A true BT is a person born and raised frum who did an aveira and did tshuva for it. A person who never knew what the halacha was is more accurately labeled a captured or kidnapped child (tinok shnishba).

A second generation ger, if she is a woman and both parents are geirim, cannot marry a kohein. However if she did, and then it was discovered that both parents were geirim, the marriage is valid. She, however is Jewish. The term 2nd generation simply means that they are like people who immigrated and the 2nd generation grew up in the land.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:38 am

simcha2 wrote:

Or better yet, why can't these communities that are not accepting of BT and gerim follow halacha with regard to this issue?

There are levels of acceptance. For example, a BT or a ger will have no trouble getting an aliyah to the Torah reading and most community day schools will accept their children as students but marriage is a personal issue and most people want to marry others who grew up like they did. This is not 100% however and there are lots of marriages between FFBs and BTs and geirim or the children of those people.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:39 am

DrMom wrote:

Exactly. Find a community where you fit in rather than trying to fit into a community that doesn't accept outsiders.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 6:43 am

BH5745 wrote:

They are just labels. People love labels, and generalizations. And boxes.

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