Children of BTs/Geirim

amother

Ruby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 9:42 am

southernbubby wrote:

Because the term BT is misused to begin with. Don't we call the children of Holocaust survivors 'second generation'? Ask any child of a BT and you will be told that they were in a way korbonos for the way that their parents had been brought up. (I am waiting for the rotten tomatoes to be thrown.) A true BT is a person born and raised frum who did an aveira and did tshuva for it. A person who never knew what the halacha was is more accurately labeled a captured or kidnapped child (tinok shnishba).

A second generation ger, if she is a woman and both parents are geirim, cannot marry a kohein. However if she did, and then it was discovered that both parents were geirim, the marriage is valid. She, however is Jewish. The term 2nd generation simply means that they are like people who immigrated and the 2nd generation grew up in the land.

Just want to point out that, if taking the long view of family history, BT's almost certainly had grandparents, (sometimes parents, depending on the generation) or great grandparents who were frum.

Being not frum is a tiny one, two or three-generational blip on the family tree.

Because statistically, more than that and the descendants would not be Jewish altogether.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 9:44 am

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

a person is not so crazy to become Jewish unless there is something really messed up in them and they are trying to fix it. Either abusive childhood, dysfunction, mental illness , etc.

I found this to be extremely offensive. Your father can speak for himself.

I know many gerim who converted after a long search for emes, and found it in Torah. They sacrificed time, money, careers, social standing, moved from fancy homes into much lesser homes to be in the eruv, all for Torah.

These are fine, well adjusted people who you would have been happy to associate with before conversion.

As you say, some people may convert as an escape from the pain of life, but it is absolutely the excepetion to the rule. Rabbis are reluctant to convert anyone who is not emotionally sound, because of the risk of them falling back into their old ways.

These days, an Orthodox conversion can last 2 to 3 years. Not exactly what you would call a "quick fix".

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 9:46 am

amother wrote:

I think this would apply to many baalei teshuva as well. Someone could have been raised conservative in a very Jewish neighborhood, attended Jewish groups, shul or synagogue and Jewish activities and have a strong cultural Jewish identity.

Becoming a BT in that situation is more of a progression, than a radical life change.

Or, a BT could have been raised fully secularized in a location with few Jews, possibly a non-Jewish father, and known nothing at all about what being Jewish means until adulthood.

And even in this second situation, the motive for becoming frum can be, leaving behind unhappiness, possibly dysfunction or abuse; or, simply searching for truth.

*If* it's true, that children of BT's or geirim go otd, I think a reason is because the BT's or geirim either were megayer or became frum for the second reason, to leave behind emotionally unhealthy relationships, yet they never did become emotionally healthy, though frum.

If you look back to the original BT movement of nearly half a century ago, you see that kiruv workers believed that mental illness, unhappiness, and dysfunction, were the results of secular living and that being frum would cure those maladies. After they mekareved people, they made shidduchim for them, sometimes pairing very emotionally impaired people with each other, thinking that they were a good match and that everything would work out fine, now that they were frum. What actually happened was that these people could not handle raising a large family but were told to do it anyway and many of the children of those people exited the community as soon as they could.

I have seen some very tragic outcomes from that arrangement and I think that kiruv workers today are cautioned not to make religion a cure-all for mental illness and when to understand that the person needs immediate intervention with a mental health professional and that the kiruv worker should not encourage any major life changes.

DrMom

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 9:46 am

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

I do know families where both parents are BT and all kids are adults and frum ( large families) one would never k ow their background had they not told you.
However, I find that there is a difference between children from both parents as BTs and children that has either one or both parents as a ger.
It is possible that geirim may bring some dysfunction from their upbringing into the mix and that affects the children negatively . As my father, a Ger told us , a person is not so crazy to become Jewish unless there is something really messed up in them and they are trying to fix it. Either abusive childhood, dysfunction, mental illness , etc. This is not to say every Ger has problems, but there is definitely something making them search for more meaning in life. Usually their circumstances.

That sounds about as self-hating as I've ever heard.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

Our family had been not frum for two generations but when people decided to leave frumkeit after coming to America, they did it with the gusto that we BTs went into Yiddishkeit. My maternal great grandparents were really frum but when they came to America, they were unable to maintain that frumkeit with their children, due to lack of Jewish education and a great push on everyone to assimilate, and the younger ones had no memory of the shtetle at all.
The frum great grandparents were long gone by the time that I was born so only their stories had an effect on me. 2 or 3 generations OTD are enough to make it that the descendants don't relate as frum Jews, or even as Jews at all.

amother

Ruby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 9:56 am

southernbubby wrote:

Interesting....makes sense

keym

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 10:04 am

Back to the original question. I do know some BT/gerim who went into yiddishkeit very "starry eyed" thinking its the panacea for all and then got very disillusioned when they realized that frum life is still hard. If they give over that disillusionment to their kids, its much easier to see why the child would go otd. But thats pretty much the same as a frum person becoming disillusioned.
But to the op I would say 1) try to give over an enthusiasm for Torah and mitzvos 2) empathize and be kind when you or your kids feel deprived 3) find a down to earth open minded rav (the thread about the woman missing families thanksgiving and xmas dinnersand feeling depressed come to mind) 4) dont be quick to assur everything. (I know someone who doesnt allow his kids to eat turkey at chanuka parties because Iits too similar to Thanksgiving) 5) dont latch onto all the beauty as reasons. We keep shabbos cuz hashem said so not because of the beauty of the family dinner. Just as an example 6) daven but ultimately its in hashem and your kids hands not yours.

thunderstorm

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 10:04 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I'm sorry I knew this post had an "ouch" factor, but I wanted to bring the point of view from a ger himself.
My inlaws are also geirim and had a lot of pain growing up.
Of course geirim give up an entire life and take years to do this and they mean it when they convert. My father still believes Judaism is the most beautiful religion and so do my in laws . But I do feel that the same way FFB kids go OTD because of pain, sometimes converts are converting to Judaism because of pain.
I'm not knocking converts. I am a child of one and daughter in law of others. If anything I have "Ger Pride". But there is a negative affect on the children unfortunately.
Most of my siblings and my husbands entire family are very upset at their parents for becoming Jewish . They grew up as outcasts in the community and weren't given a chance because of their background unfortunately. I seem to be the only one in my family that wasn't made fun of In school for having a parent as a convert.
I do believe that converts should live in Eretz Yisroel as opposed to the NY area . There is a lot more acceptance there and room for growth and for the family to "fit in".

FranticFrummie

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 10:14 am

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

I'm sorry for all the struggles your family have gone through, and I respect the strength it took to persevere. Believe me, I get it!

I was just stung by the generalization, even with the disclaimer of "some". BTs and Gerim have enough stigma to deal with already. Dwelling on their past history is something that is forbidden by the Torah. We should only look forward, and work on how we can support our fellow Jews.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

Many of the BTs my age remember more traditional grandparents/great-grandparents. As y husband says, does the song My Zaidy really resonate for people now?
I'm not saying that that makes BTs these days more or less grounded or able to integrate easily. Just saying that each generation has its challenges.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 10:22 am

There's definitely something to being "second generation". Yes, I'm ffb, but it's different when your parents are not than when your parents are. My parents were never really able to be involved in my Hebrew homework. They can read Hebrew for ritualistic purposes but they dont fully understand it. Also, I was always coming home with new things, new Halachos etc that they didn't know before. In general, I knew more than my parents, not just in knowledge but in culture; I was an insider, they we're outsiders. Think of it like children of immigrants. They don't really have strong minhagim because they have nothing to go on from their parents. My dad asked his Rav and the Rav said "you can follow mine, or since you know you're a yekke, you can learn the yekkish minhagim and take them on". My father chose to go the yekkish route. Also, I grew up a lot less sheltered than my peers with ffb parents. From a young age, I was exposed to grandparents driving on Shabbos and eating bacon and cousins who watched and read stuff I wasn't allowed to. I'm fortunate that we lived in a community where bts were accepted, I imagine in less accepting communities there are even more differences in the dynamic. But yeah, growing up as an ffb with bt parents is a very different experience than ffb with ffb parents.

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 10:29 am

BH5745 wrote:

Huh, I was always taught that there is no such thing as a "second generation" BT... I was taught that if one wasn't raised frum since the time of their birth, they are labeled BT. If one was raised frum their entire life, they are labeled FFB. A BT is a person who did tshuvah for their past ways and returned to Hashem. So I fail to see how someone whose parents followed the halachot before, during and after they were born and raised them in a frum home is a "second generation BT." What exactly should these children do tshuvah for?

What is a second generation ger? I was taught that the daughter of a gioress is born Jewish, she isn't born a gioress herself. And I also learned that the daughter of a Jewish women and ger husband is also born Jewish. So I don't see how anyone could possibly be a "second generation" ger/gioress either.

But let me pose this question: if one parent is a ger/gioress and the other a BT, is the child now a "second generation" ger/giroess or "second generation" BT? Rolling Eyes

I thought that concept was ridiculous too, and completely unlike anything I've ever experienced. Sounds judgemental and elitist, like trying to make sure you're the best... you might have grown up from, but you're really just a second generation BT Rolling Eyes

keym

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 10:52 am

amother wrote:

Not realy though. Like a previous posterwrote many children of bts have a different experience than children of ffbs with their parents not being as knowledgeable or whatever. The 2nd generation immigrant comparison seems really accurate.

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 11:08 am

keym wrote:

All I know is that if BT/ger parents were well adjusted, emotionally stable, kind people, their offspring are generally well adjusted, emotionally stable, kind ffb people. And their offspring are usually indiscernible from ffb children of ffb parents. Take a community like Baltimore, MD for example - dominated by BT s during the height of the BT movement in the eighties and nineties, now populated by their ffb children, who are by and large well adjusted, emotionally stable, kind people, and cannot be told apart from any other ffb of ffb parents raised in the same community. This second generation thing just seems like another way to be elitist. Don't see it's true, don't buy it, and don't like the term.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 11:10 am

keym wrote:

I’d prefer second generation American over second generation immigrant. Similarly second generation frum, over second generation BT.

And if parents are looking for gender opposite replicas of their children as potential spouses- I suppose all that is relevant- and challenging, and disheartening.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 11:46 am

amother wrote:

This is dizzying. All these labels and nuances. The next Imamother labeling poll should be at least 3 pages long.

amother

Linen

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:02 pm

amother wrote:

Baltimore--any any other very large established OOT community like Chicago, LA, and Miami are somewhat of an exception. I think the bigger difference is between "second generation BTs" from places like Portland, Sacramento, Cincinnati, and Nashville, raised like BY girls, compared to BY girls raised in NY. That's because, as a generalization, even the established OOT communities have exposure to baalei teshuva and lots of stripes of people and are encouraged to mingle in a way that more insular neighborhoods are not.

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:05 pm

Op, there are so many many children of gerim out there who grew up to be outstanding frum people. Don't listen to all the mumbo jumbo about your place in the frum world, your children's future shiduchim, etc. Hold fast to the truths that brought you on this journey in the first place, be a model to your kids of sincere mitzvah observance and love for Torah learning. And when you hear an idea that gives you anxiety (who will marry my children? How can they stay Jewish without all the family their friends have?), remember Hashem is in charge and DAVEN. Keep focused on the mumbo jumbo and you'll be like a ship tossed by stormy seas, and your kids will lose confidence. Keep focused on principles of truth and you will see success in your journey.