She didn't *really* pass, but...

singleagain

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 6:45 am

amother wrote:

High school.

I'm not asking about a specific student but about a specific situation that comes up occasionally.

If this is hypothetical than I really can't figure out an answer. This most definitely should be a case by case decision.

High school is such an impressionable time for girls. The way I was treated by the administration and teachers still has ramifications on who I am today, over ten years later.

There really isn't a one-size-fits-all in a situation like this.

brkn

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 7:58 am

shirachadasha wrote:

Can we take a step back?
For kids who are struggling, can the parents, teacher and principal meet as soon as the problems become noticeable? Can this student get a modified exam that's distributed to her discreetly? Can you tell her ahead of the exam that she will pass as long as you can see she put in effort? Can you arrange for tutoring long before the exam? Does she belong in this class?
If you believe it's important for her to understand the material, brainstorm for a way to deliver it to her. If she just needs to make it to graduation, tell her that her reward will be for effort and that's what matters.
Of what benefit is it to let her spin her wheels trying to comprehend the material while only increasing anxiety?

I think this is the right answer. If someone struggles with the material, passing her might make her feel better but doesn't solve the problem. If you meet with everyone, you can discuss possible solutions, like a different style of tutoring or testing for ADD or dyslexia.

amother

Rose

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:05 am

amother wrote:

I feel that a P is more dignified. (When I taught the administration only allowed number marks though.)

This
Make sure administration is ok with it.
IMHO P is more dignified
IMHO, Anything under 70 is a little humiliating
Also make sure that you really pick her up with beautiful comment.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:17 am

relish wrote:

If this is something that is known amongst the students, then I believe it should be a P.

For all anyone knows, she could have taken a makeup test and scored really nicely.

I don't think it's a matter of "couldn't be bothered" as in "I don't care", it seems to me that the "couldn't be bothered" is more of "I don't have time".

The question of how it affects her gpa is also one to take into consideration.

No, it's not known. Most girls take tests on time. Make-up tests cost money (for the student taking as well as for the school) and are a huge hassle for me to mark precisely, so for the most part, make-ups are discouraged.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:20 am

SixOfWands wrote:

If the other students receive number grades, then P means “You’re different. Either I think you’re stupid, so I’m giving you a pass, or I just can’t be bothered with you.” I know that’s not what you intend, but that’s what it says.

Unless everything was multiple choice, I’m not sure how teachers can precisely differentiate between an 89 and a 90. I mean, it has to be done, but how much precision is there. IOW, you’re talking about 2 points. Maybe she really deserved it.

I agree with you about a certain flexibility in the marking, even though with my tests most questions do very much have an either right or wrong component.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:21 am

imamother153 wrote:

Then its a case by case decision. You should speak to the student as well. Praise her for her effort and let her know that u believe in her that she can score higher. That she really has the tools for it and the strength to do so. And if she needs any further explanations beyond the class work on the subject matter you're able to assist.

Agreed, but that's unrelated to my original question.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:21 am

amother wrote:

Personally I'd prefer the "p".

65 is passing by the skin of your teeth. P doesn't show that as starkly.

But I've never been in that situation so I'm not talking from experience. I did have a teacher remove her subject from my report card when I failed her test but was a great student in her class Smile

anon because people know my story

I hear that. It makes sense. I'm starting to think this should have been a poll. Smile

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:25 am

amother wrote:

The mother's side-

On the outside she doesn't seem to care but you should know that girl with the normally cool temperament cried the morning of the midterm in frustration because despite the hours of tutoring, homework and class there are some concepts she just can't grasp and she despises herself for it. It's eating her up inside and chipping away at her confidence. My heart breaks at the anxiety this is causing her. Yes she seems nonchalant in class, in front of her friends, in front of you but to me, her mother, her sounding board, she's frustrated and so nervous that it's causing her to lose focus on what you teach and instead be completely devoted to this anxiety and constant worry. You don't see that side and it's okay, that's why I'm telling you about it. Factoring in her effort into her grade and giving her a higher mark isn't rachmanus, it's a glimmer of hope that maybe she CAN do better. It's a boost of confidence. And maybe that glimmer can grow because if I can get an okay mark this time, who knows what else I can do?

I know that for many girls who struggle, this is a daily nisayon that affects them in other areas besides for the academic (emotionally, socially). I am always in awe and feel humbled by those students who keep plodding and trying and studying despite the many disappointments they've had. But again, my question wasn't if I should raise her mark a bit, it was how to do it? Would your daughter be happier with a P or with a 65, if she didn't really pass the term?

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:26 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

Well I haven't read every word.

Why not change your WHOLE system of marking? 50% of the mark is for the grade on the material. 50% is for perceived effort. Most people, the score would be the same. So 65% in the test means for most people 65% effort - mark equals 65. But for some kids 65% at would represent 100% effort. Others would get 100%,with only 65% effort. I would not disclose the various percentages, but rather put a comment such as "fantastic effort", or "you know the material well, but a greater effort will lead to a better result.". So a kid could get 60% in the test, 100% for effort, and end up with 80%. If everyone is in the same system and understands how it works, it's kind of fair.

Another way would be to grade each student only against their previous results. So eg you dis 10% better in this test than the last one. Like a runner who betters their own time.

Actually this is just my way of saying I believe that marks and grades do a lot of damage for very little benefit.

Anyway always remember
Effort is up to you
Result is up to haKadosh Baruch Hu.

(ducking tomatoes)

I'll take it up with the principal.... This is totally beyond my league.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:29 am

shirachadasha wrote:

These are good questions for a spinoff. I'll just answer the bolded: No, that can't be done. Many girls take advantage of such a guarantee. I can't pass her if she got a 36, for example...

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:30 am

singleagain wrote:

No, I'm not asking about a one-size-fits-all solution. I'm asking which mark (65 or P) is objectively "better"?

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:35 am

naomi2 wrote:

Can you gibe her a 70? Add on 5 pt for effort. That would solve the dignity problem. What difference would it make to you?

Sometimes that can be done, and sometimes not. It's not about the difference it makes to me, personally. It's about the value of the 70. Can I give that to this girl? Based on what? Then what happens with a girl who gets a 65 quiz average, a 78 on one test and a 70 on the midterm. Her average is 71. She did so much better than the first girl and only gets one point more? How is that fair when we use a universal marking system?

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 8:47 am

happyone wrote:

Imo, teachers should attempt to verify effort.
Marks should then reae
G , VG, E
Good, very good, excellent
The girls know their actual marks based on the midterms , finals and quizzes they get back .

When you teach 200+ students, this is impossible to do. I hear where you're coming from, but think about this: grading a girl's effort, when I have no idea what she does at home and for how long, is more likely to backfire than a factual number mark which simply grades results.

I'm actually one of those people who, both as a student and a teacher, felt that the "effort" column on a report card should be abolished. Is the teacher a navi to know how hard a girl works? Both the academically successful girls and the struggling ones???

Notsobusy

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 9:00 am

amother wrote:

Why can't we have different "fair" for different students? Why is one girl's "fair" at all related to another girl's "fair"? Hashem created us all differently, with different levels of intelligence and different personality traits, why can't each girl's "fair" be based on her abilities?

I realize that's harder to do on the high school level, where you're teaching a lot of girls and don't get to know them as well. But you should at least base what's fair to her on what you do know about her, if you know she really tries hard, but she's really not intelligent or not good at taking tests, then her mark should reflect that.

animeme

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 9:03 am

I think you need to take more than the girl's reaction into account when deciding what to put on a report card. You (and more likely, the principal) need to think, "What will the people seeing this report card think?" Namely, seminaries and colleges. I'm not saying to change her grade to help her chances, but you are deciding between two options.

So, possibly based on way grade she's in and where she's holding with everything else, or possibly not, what does a seminary or college think when they see a P? My instinct is that an actual number shows that they really did pass (particularly if it's not a nicely rounded one). A P looks like a gift, unless it's a non- standard/ non- academic class. But I don't actually know.

Notsobusy

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 9:09 am

amother wrote:

I'm just curious, why are make-up tests a bigger hassle to mark precisely?

I know my dd's school discourages make-up tests and charges for them, and I don't understand it. In the school I went to, if you were out sick, you just took the test the next day during that teacher's class. It was never a big deal.