Why do most ppl at shabbat meals have bad napkin etiquette?

nachlaot

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 11:34 am

Rachel Shira wrote:

I’ve never seen anyone at a Shabbos meal practice “napkin etiquette” and would find it weird if they did. I would not like it if they put their dirty napkins on my dining room chairs. I think the napkins the etiquette books are talking about are cloth napkins or at least large dinner napkins, not the cheapest smallest white paper ones I and many people use. Those don’t seem to belong unfolded on laps.

The rules apply equally to cheap white paper napkins. Nobody wants to look at your wadded-up dirty white paper napkin any more than they want to look at your dirty cloth napkin. Smile

amother wrote:

because no one wants to be so formal unless you're dining with the queen.

Lots of people in this thread don't seem to get this point, but it's not formality for the sake of WASP formality. It's about not being disgusting. Like wiping your mouth if there's food on it -- which is often a problem at shabbos meals. Your wadded-up napkin doesn't belong on the table for a half hour after you finish eating while people shmooze and the host gives a d'var torah.

Rachel Shira

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 11:39 am

At most of the Shabbos meals I host and attend, a wadded up paper napkin is completely unnoticeable among the stuff on the table. I have a plastic tablecloth on the table and it gets wrapped up with all garbage at the end of the meal. Besides, a small dirty napkin tucked under the edge of the plate is pretty inconspicuous. To each their own. I enjoy polite people but I also don't stand on ceremony too much, and wouldn't feel comfortable at someone's table where they followed the rules of etiquette to a t. If someone ate with their fingers out of a serving dish, that would probably be where my line was drawn and I would come post about it here. Smile

But that's just me.

giselle

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 11:55 am

A lot of etiquette “rules” are not really what is considered proper etiquette. Often there are times when things are “permissible”. Anyway - there are so many basic table manners that ppl should work on; I don’t think we need to obsess over not putting napkins on our laps - obviously a gross wadded up napkin should be disposed of, but a napkin used to simply dab at your mouth can be then folded to hide the dirty part. There is a way of conducting oneself that appears polite without worrying about over the top antiquated rules. Are you as careful about polite conversation and avoiding gossip? Because most shabbos tables I am at are full of that.

Eta: I don’t use plastic at all at the shabbos table, and I do appreciate a slightly more formal tone, but very slightly. Who wants to sit at a rigid shabbos table?

etky

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 12:05 pm

The problem is that people - kids and adults- are always popping up during the meal: to help serve, to bring in dishes between courses, to attend to a kid, to go to the bathroom etc.. It's not like people are seated for the entire duration of the meal. We always start off with the napkins on our laps (my family at least - guests, not always) but at some point they all end up on the table, in various configurations.
My issue is dessert: I hate bringing out the dessert course when there are dirty napkins on the table. I like a clean table for dessert, so I make sure that everything, including used napkins, are removed with the main course utensils. I bring out a pile of fresh napkins with the dessert.
I don't think I've ever really noticed if other people do that as well or not, but in my own home it's important to me.
I use nice, big paper napkins btw. I have quite a collection of all different colors and patterns - including the solid color ones from Ikea. I start off the meal with the nice ones but for dessert I'll usually just give out the smaller, everyday ones.
I have quite a collection of cloth napkins and pretty napkin rings too but I almost never use them these days, except for very formal occasions. Who needs the extra laundry....

WhatFor

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 12:06 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

https://www.thespruce.com/napkins-at-the-dinner-table-1216963

If my napkin were disgusting and dirty, I’d probably remove it from the table and ask for a new one rather than leaving it on the table. But usually I just fold it so that any food stains are on the inside.

Thanks, sixofwands. That had been my understanding as well. If I'm eating out at a place that has a proper fabric napkin, I'll place it in my lap.

Not so if I'm eating at any place with a paper napkin. I assume if you're putting out paper napkins, you're not stuck on traditional etiquette, and I personally would feel pretentious and ridiculous putting a tissue paper on my lap.

I generally don't put napkins on my lap at people's Shabbat dinner, although I suppose if there were a material one and the host did it, I might.

amother

Plum

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 12:21 pm

nachlaot wrote:

Agree with this. However the cloth napkin is ment to cover your lap, and not to wipe your mouth that's what I have paper napkins for. Never use a cloth napkin to wipe please! Use a paper napkin for that and take them out with you after use.

Raisin

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 12:42 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Putting fork and knife together shows you are finished eating (and waitress may take your plate without the extra moment of work to move cutlery together). Seems like a petty thing but for a waitress doing this work moment repeatedly 30-40 times on a function and also asking each guest if they are finished, well, not really fun. This is the subtle language between a guest and waitress/host.

If serving a whole fish: fish fork does faciliate eating very very much. Still not a catastophy if you don't have them.

I personally don't have separate wine glasses for white or red. But I do expect wine to served in a proper wine glass and not in the water glass (always hated it)
Napkin in lap saves your outfit from spilled food and protects the host's chair (some men have the irritating and untzniout way of sitting with their legs wide apart ruining those light coloured chairs with their food droppings) And as said: Napkin belongs on your lap when sitting down. You may not notice, bother or care. And ther are ppl who do notice. It makes a difference in impression. You decide what impression you wish to convey. Your choice.

I don't have waiters at my shabbos table. If you do, no wonder you are so into all these rules. You have time for them!

I host every single shabbos and yom tov meal. Often more then 20 people. I simply don't have that much space to store 30 or 60 wine glasses in my smallish kitchen. Never mind the time to wash them all up.

Many of these rules are designed for waiter service meals with plenty of help. Not semi formal shabbat dinners with kids running around and one person doing all the serving, cooking, cleaning up, often with help from the guests. Not to mention, in Israel I sefardim come from different cultures with all sorts of different rules. Why are your "rules" more important then the morrocan family across the way?

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 12:49 pm

etky wrote:

This. At age 3-4-5 it's OK to go to the bathroom in middle of meal. After a certain age (and certainly NOT teens/adults) do you leave the table for the b/room if you are a guest unless you have a serious medical condition. It is simply neither acceptable nor good manners. By the time you are an adult it should be obvious you go before meal or just before birkat hamazon.

Yes I know I probably will be burnt at the stake for saying this.

Raisin

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 12:56 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Please share some more of these rules. I had no idea I was so rude and uncultured, or that my guests were. Rolling Eyes

I wish I would have known this one before having children. Would make it much easier to sit through a meal. I could have used a surrogate. Although in general child free meals must be way better, according to you. No kids running around doing who knows what, making you, gasp, have to get up from the table.

Just imagining my guest reactions if I printed out some of these rules...

Re the paper and cloth napkins. Most meals have one napkin provided per person, not enough for lap and other purposes. If there are cloth napkins, there are not also paper ones. Although I personally always put extra paper napkins on the table, not everyone does.

someone

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:04 pm

Can I venture a guess that the OP and Bnei Berak are English? You guys sound like how my grandmother described her parents and her nanny. I am from England, so I know a lot more about table manners than most of the people I know (who are either Israeli or American) but over the years I mellowed a lot. Now its more important to me that people feel comfortable at my Shabbos table than where they put their napkin or what angle they put their knife and fork at.

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:13 pm

Raisin wrote:

Raisin, surprise surprise: I have no staff at my Shabbes table. I don't even have cleaning help. Wink

And I don't have 20 ppl or more for meals.
These are not "my rules", believe me. and I would very much like to hear more what you call "Moroccan family" rules when it comes to customs and manners.

Raisin

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:14 pm

someone wrote:

lol I am probably the most british person I know. Born and bought up there. My family lived there many generations and and middle class at the very least. Don't live there anymore but in a country with a similar culture as regards etiquette.

Definitely all these rules are fine at a wedding, banquet etc. But not necessarily at a shabbos meal.

Rachel Shira

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:16 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

You consider it impolite to go to the bathroom in the middle of the meal? We must come from very different backgrounds.

amother

Plum

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:17 pm

someone wrote:

My grandmother was always ontop of these rules, she came from ' uper land' germany I believe.

Raisin

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:18 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Raisin, surprise surprise: I have no staff at my Shabbes table. I don't even have cleaning help. Wink

And I don't have 20 ppl or more for meals.
These are not "my rules", believe me. and I would very much like to hear more what you call "Moroccan family" rules when it comes to customs and manners.

I host all types of people...very very few keep these rules. Those who do are usually americans or british from not a frum background.

I have no idea what morroccan table manners are...I can ask the next morroccan I host. Just throwing that out as an example. Just saying Israel is not the USA or the UK, and Israelis come from many places. Why should Israelis adopt formal, western table manners? Why not iraqi or polish or somewhere else?

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:30 pm

someone wrote:

someone, this is a huge compliment for me (100% serious!), absolutely loving it! Hug

No, I'm not British. And certainly not coming from the top drawer. But even a simple gal can learn excellent manners if she wants to. I'm not there yet

Wink

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:43 pm

Rachel Shira wrote:

You consider it impolite to go to the bathroom in the middle of the meal?

Totally yes. You go before meal or just before birkat hamazon. Unless you are a very young child or have a medical condition. Adults are definitely expected to have some bladder control and anticipate if/when they will need a bathroom. To mix a meal time with going to b/room to tend to your bodily functions is not good manners. I know of simple families where children definitely have been reprimanded for this by parents.

someone

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:47 pm

[quote]someone, this is a huge compliment for me (100% serious!), absolutely loving it! Hug
[quote]
Yay, glad I made you happy. I seriously never met anyone not from England who knows about all these etiquette rules never mind cares about them. I do think though (this is not a personal comment about you, its a general observation) that if having good manners makes someone look down on other people who don't subscribe to the same random set of rules someone made up then maybe their priorities are not so correct.