Why do most ppl at shabbat meals have bad napkin etiquette?

Mommyg8

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 1:52 pm

An interesting take on this conversation can be seen here:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com......html

One paragraph quote:

"Manners aren’t what they used to be, but pointing out someone’s social errors is bad manners. Further, commenting on a person’s minor gaffes, such as imperfect grammar, wrong word choices, or poor table manners crosses the politeness line and, frankly, shows a lack of social skills. When our mothers told us to mind our manners, I don’t think they meant “and everyone else’s manners as well!” Consider this quote from Emily Post: “Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use.”"

Please forgive me for my lack of manners in pointing out your lack of manners Very Happy

Jewishfoodie

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 2:03 pm

Because it's much more fun to eat fish with your hands and wipe your hands in your dress! And who doesn't love bringing the soup bowl to their face to drink it!

OH! You meant GROWN UPS!

Yah.. Either you were raised with them or without them. But guess what?? You can LEARN them at any age. Let's not go crazy with oyster forks but common table manners is EXPECTED of every guest. Oh, and, pet peeve, if you're at a wedding and the waiter served your neighbors first, calm down. Your portion is coming. Do not get up and approach the tray and pick your portion. It looks.. Sad.

WhatFor

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 2:37 pm

Raisin wrote:

I host all types of people...very very few keep these rules. Those who do are usually americans or british from not a frum background.

I have no idea what morroccan table manners are...I can ask the next morroccan I host. Just throwing that out as an example. Just saying Israel is not the USA or the UK, and Israelis come from many places. Why should Israelis adopt formal, western table manners? Why not iraqi or polish or somewhere else?

I'm so with you. I find that ppl who care so much about certain rules to the point of judging others, often have something to prove, like everyone needs to think that they're from high society.

Loud chewing, unsanitary behavior, I get why that would bother someone. Getting bothered that the majority of ppl don't abide by your own meaningless social constructs in their own homes, I don't get.

Different strokes for different folks.

amother

Orange

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 2:39 pm

someone wrote:

Yay, glad I made you happy. I seriously never met anyone not from England who knows about all these etiquette rules never mind cares about them. I do think though (this is not a personal comment about you, its a general observation) that if having good manners makes someone look down on other people who don't subscribe to the same random set of rules someone made up then maybe their priorities are not so correct.

*Sarcasm alert*
Most people have their little hang up to make them feel "elite" in their way.
So... anyone with these napkin manners, glad you have your little thing, now, tell me- how often do you bathe your kids? And do you shower every morning when you wake up or do you carry around all the sweat you produced at night all through your day and think it's fine because you showered the night before- before new sweat accumulated under your covers? Cuz that's something I care about more than you making my chairs dirty with your napkins... ;P

Last edited by amother on Fri, Feb 01 2019, 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Plum

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 2:45 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Or spelling! Thank you Imamother's got to learn this.

nachlaot

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 2:50 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Ok, nachlaot, why don't you start your own "Emily Post" column? Sounds like there's a need for it....

And just for your information, it is considered extremely impolite to comment on a fellow table mates manners, or lack thereof...

Bnei Brak and I should! I feel like the frum community could benefit from it. Smile

I would never say anything to a fellow table mate about his/her lack of manners. But I'm entitled to come on this forum and genuinely ask if this is a widespread problem that other people experience.

And no, I'm not British. I'm an American BT who has a job in the secular world. Perhaps experience with the secular world affects how one feels about this stuff; I think we do exhibit/learn better manners when the non jews are watching/judging us.

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:05 pm

nachlaot wrote:

Bnei Brak and I should! I feel like the frum community could benefit from it. Smile

Let's also not forget that the table is like the mizbeach. There were plenty of rules and restrictions around the korbanot and temple service, right? To have table manners is in my very personal opinion to pay respect for the table and what is symbolizes. Not to mention ben adam le chavero (to disregard table manners to the extent that others around feel uncomfortable or grossed out cannot be "ben adam le chavero". Our food come from the Almighty and only him. Let's eat in a dignified manner that he will be pleased with.

giselle

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:07 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Totally yes. You go before meal or just before birkat hamazon. Unless you are a very young child or have a medical condition. Adults are definitely expected to have some bladder control and anticipate if/when they will need a bathroom. To mix a meal time with going to b/room to tend to your bodily functions is not good manners. I know of simple families where children definitely have been reprimanded for this by parents.

Ok now I just know this whole thread is a joke.

amother

Slateblue

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:11 pm

Raisin wrote:

We have one guy who comes to us who thinks nothing of using his own fork or spoon and putting it in the communal serving dish. (even though I put serving utensials in every serving plate or bowl.) Its really gross and unsanitary and that is what I call very bad table manners. And potentially dangerous if someone has an allergy.

Oh gosh, I know about this.

My father-in-law used to dip his challah and fingers into the communal dishes. I was so grossed out. My mother-in-law even worse. At a recent simcha she took a whole pie that was partially started and took a fork and started eating right out of the pan... And chicken necks in soup... Picks them with two hands and bites in.

My husband was raised by wolves... Baruch Hashem, he didn't learn from them!

amother

Plum

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:13 pm

amother wrote:

What would you do if he did learn? I get nauseous just by watching!

amother

Silver

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:18 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I think I care more about Halacha. You know the one that says you can’t make brachos or bentch if you have to go the bathroom or a kid’s diaper needs changing.

Jewishfoodie

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:21 pm

mgs wrote:

I'm confused. I'm dealing with a double negative here but what was the sarcasm? Are you for or against table manners?

And if you're against it, where do you draw the line? Communal plates with private forks is bad but napkin on table is OK? Or, napkin on lap is stupid, but taking 4 of one thing from communal plate is OK? I think what your trying to say is (and I could be totally off here) that people should do their utmost to be as polite as possible TO THEIR UNDERSTANDING. so if to u, it's okay to leave your dirty fork and knife on a clean tablecloth tho be collected, you should be able to do that.
I do not agree. You are making a mess and you're not the one cleaning it. By taking a full plate of something that's placed there for the entire table, you're eating your neighbors food. And by being polite, you are actually wary of the world around you and are respectful to it.

I've witnessed people treat the non Jewish staff at weddings as serfs or worse, slaves to be treated with scorn.

I've heard things like,

"Excuse me! You missed 4 people on our table!" and "I asked for water 10 minutes ago!"

Really? Truly? Is THAT what derech Eretz is?

If you think there's any hyperbole in this, interview a waiter at a Jewish function. You'll be beet-red by the time you're done.

Now, what makes the queen of England sooo cool is that she demonstrates self control and she acts "finer" than the commoners.

We are all Bnos Melachim. Even MORE is expected of us. More than the queen of England. And when you yell at a waiter, you don't just embarrass yourself, you embarrass EVERY SINGLE JEW, GER, GIORES, AND Hakadosh Baruch Hu Himself. He holds us all to higher standards. So whether these etiquette lessons seem trivial to you personally or not, try to be your very best self. And if it means learning some manners from the country you live in, like bowing in Japan or curtseying to a queen, by all means, do it.

Its a Kiddush Hashem.

And when you don't do it, it's possibly a chillul Hashem.

WhatFor

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:29 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Bc I'm sure when the Jews travelled to har habayit and were bbqing their korban, they were looking thousands of years into the future and consulting Her Royal Majesty, the Queen of England, as to how to properly honor hashem from their campsites on the mountainside.

They would pull the pristine, neatly folded white cloth napkins from that extra package on the donkey, and ever so delicately lay it in their laps as they sat cross legged with their bottoms pressed firmly against the soft earth.

It's not commonly known, but nevertheless a true fact that every family was required to pack double the amount of white napkins they thought they would need, placing them in two separate packages, lest they lost one pack during the journey, so that their korban would not be rejected before Hashem for lack of respect. Anyone who has studied karbonos knows this.

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:33 pm

amother wrote:

I think I care more about Halacha. You know the one that says you can’t make brachos or bentch if you have to go the bathroom or a kid’s diaper needs changing.

It's not against Halacha to go to he b/room before starting the meal. It goes without saying a smelly diaper must be changed immediately. But how many adults have smelly diapers? None in my experience. It goes without saying that if there is a need so not to violate Halacha, then go. But most adults should be fine through a standard Shabbos meal without having to jump up for the b/room after 1st course or soup has been served. Someone here complained ppl getting up and leaving the table for different reasons and napkins therefore being tossed on table and not statying on the lap. Well of course, if I host a meal for 15 ppl and everyone will suddenly have an urge to tend their bodily functions (which, again, could have been taken care of prior meal) of course there will be a heck of a lot of fallen napkins and balagan.

Jewishfoodie

Sun, Feb 04 2018, 3:35 pm

WhatFor wrote:

Please don't use that argument. We don't live then. We live in the here and now. We're NOT in Noah's ark. We're not in Avraham Avinu's tent (sadly) but we're in the here and now. Let's do what we can to glorify our Father's name by living our lives to a 'higher standard' when possible. Yes, in those days, they washed their feet before they entered someone else's tent. Because it was polite. That was then. This is now.