"If it saves one life"

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:33 pm

sushilover wrote:

Do you think they are being unfair with how they are sourcing their numbers? Or do you think that any statistic coming from someone who is pro gun rights is inherently false?

I chose that source because they were very clear about what is considered a mass shooting, they did not include terrorism (which would actually bring the European rate up), and there aren't many other sources that discuss the per capita rate (which is the only useful numbers when talking about statistics.)

Find me a better source and we can discuss it. Just note that simply saying it's a site by pro gun activist is not an actual argument against his numbers.

Even if outlawing AR-15s doesn't change the number of deaths in the US, at least friends and family of victims will see an attempt to protect society against this threat. Obviously there are many already in circulation that will be hard to round up and destroy and not everyone will turn them in.
Vulnerable children and students should at least see an attempt to keep them safe and we need to do that in a variety of ways; one of which is to keep that type of weapon out of the hands of the citizenry.
The lawyer for Cruz is presenting him as a youth that doesn't have a brain developed enough for impulse control but schools need to teach children what their parents are failing to teach and that is empathy and impulse control. The adoptive mother, who passed away, was not much of a disciplinarian. There are many ways that society as a whole needs to address this but the survivors are asking to outlaw this type of weapon and I believe that we need to accommodate that.

sushilover

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:35 pm

Raisin wrote:

That article tells me that Europe (especially specific countries) has a terrorism problem. Most of those really big attacks are terror related. (and involved lots of planning, many people, and illegal guns. Not quite as easy as a teenager walking into walmart and buying an assault rifle) The Norway attack was politically motivated. The guy who did it had well thought out reasons for doing it. But random crazy people deciding today would be a good day to kill lots of people? And, who also seem to enjoy targeting children? I would like to see a similar list excluding terror or politically motivated attacks.

I think all shootings are bad. Every single one. Not just mass killings. But mass shootings do evoke a stronger media reaction.

So far you are the only person who is responding to me with actual arguments.

I'm not sure what you are implying though. I am stating that the US does not have a mass shooting problem compared to the rest of the world.
You respond that because a lot of the European mass shootings were politically motivated, they shouldn't be counted??? I don't agree.

Regardless, I feel that we should address the problem of gun violence in America by actually figuring out what could prevent the most deaths. It's obvious to me that picking on the AR-15 is a meaningless gesture that wouldn't actually help bring down our numbers of gun deaths in any real way.

Edited for typo

Last edited by sushilover on Sun, Feb 18 2018, 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

sushilover

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:37 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I think we should focus on measures that would actually keep us safe instead of measures that only make it seem like we are keeping us safe.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:40 pm

sushilover wrote:

So far you are the only person who is responding to me with actual arguments.

I'm not sure what you are implying though. I am stating that the US does not have a mass shooting problem compared to the rest of the world.
You respond that because a lot of the European mass shootings were politically motivated, they shouldn't be counted??? I don't agree.

Regardless, I feel that we should address the problem of gun violence in America by actually figuring out what could prevent the most deaths. It's obvious to me that picking on the AR-15 is a meaningless gesture that would actually help bring down our numbers of gun deaths in any real way.

But there is no public motivation to prevent handgun violence because usually there are only a small amount of victims for each shooting. It is also impossible to outlaw all guns at this point. We can only figure that the fewer semi-automatics that are circulating, the lesser of a chance that one will be used for a mass shooting.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:42 pm

sushilover wrote:

I think we should focus on measures that would actually keep us safe instead of measures that only make it seem like we are keeping us safe.

So if Cruz would have been unable to purchase the AR-15, how would he have been able to kill all of those people?

Maybe they would still be alive.

It is not just gun control but that may deter someone just as giving Cruz the death penalty may deter someone.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:49 pm

You can also make the same argument from any measure that is supposed to make the public safer and you can make that argument about owning a gun itself; it is supposed to keep you safe but many times, the gun is used against the owner or the owner is unable to use it in time to save his own life.

We could wonder if all of those warnings about drinking and driving on Purim or underage drinking are actually keeping anyone safe. Possibly not but should we at least try?

Alternative

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:52 pm

southernbubby wrote:

schools need to teach children what their parents are failing to teach and that is empathy and impulse control. The adoptive mother, who passed away, was not much of a disciplinarian. .

I think it is so wrong to bring in the adoptive mother's mothering into here. Her son obviously had a ton of serious problems. He was either born with them or experienced such severe trauma that he became unbalanced. Most likely he was born that way.

What is certain is that a lax mother (if indeed she was lax) can in no way turn a normal kid into a psychopath.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 12:53 pm

southernbubby wrote:

There is no public motivation to stop most handgun deaths, because honestly most people think that drug dealers killing each other is a GOOD thing.

Not saying I agree, just saying that seems to be the general sentiment. People do pick and choose based on their personal values. People riot in the streets when a white cop shoots a Black man, but when both parties are Black, it's just another day in Chicago/Baltimore/Detroit.

Personally, I don't think we should ban all guns, but I think we should ban the ones designed for maximum kill shots per second. I also think that background checks should be 1,000% tighter.

When I lived in Washington State, I was appalled at how easy it was for me to get a handgun for home protection. I take antidepressants, and no one asked me about my medical history. They handed me the license after a few days, and there was no requirement to take safety or marksmanship courses. Not even a one day course on how to store a gun safely. It was so easy it was STUPID.

Of course I got myself to a safety course run by off duty police officers and did training with them - all on my own dime. Not many people will do that if they don't have to.

If Trump really wants to create jobs, make gun safety and target practice mandatory. Teach instructors how to profile students for problematic behavior, the way Israeli airport screeners do. Make the instructors mandadory reporters.

And most of all, make them provide a letter from a psychiatrist that proves them mentally stable before applying for a permit or purchase. Every. Single. Time.

This is not going to fix everything, not by a longshot, but it's what I can come up with right now. I'm open to hearing better ideas.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 1:04 pm

Alternative wrote:

This was what was said by the family who took him in after his mother died.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018......html

We have no proof of him being born with mental illness or having suffered trauma. If he is mentally ill then even the best parenting would not have made a difference. He was so incorrigible that he had been expelled from school. The lawyers for his defense will now have to prove that he is insane. That didn't work for Dylan Roof.

I think that raising a mass murderer is every parent's biggest nightmare and we have to wonder what causes a person to become that. We can't discount that parenting plays a role or then why should we even bother to raise our children with any morals or values?

sushilover

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 1:14 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Exactly!
That is why when we introduce a measure, we have to consider the numbers, not just our emotions after a big event. (and yes, I'd say the same about measures against immigration after a terrorist attack by an immigrant. Although of course, there are other things to take into account)

I"ll say it again: we have a major gun violence problem in this country.
It is frustrating to see people conflate all gun homicides with mass shootings and then use that to push for a ban on semi-automatic rifles.

You gave an example of unsafe drinking. Imagine if we had a drinking and driving problem with 7000 deaths due to whiskey and 300 deaths due to vodka, but the vodka deaths are more publicized. Instead of thinking about measures that would reduce the actual numbers of deaths, would you be pushing for a ban on vodka?

33055

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 1:33 pm

Alternative wrote:

When the Menendez brothers murdered their adoptive parents, I remember reading that one third of adopted kids commit a felony. They are more likely to murder their parents and commit suicide.

ACS - Adopted Child Syndrome is a defense.

http://www.crimemagazine.com/a.....child

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 2:00 pm

sushilover wrote:

But it has to start somewhere and you can't start with either banning all guns or not banning any because then we are back to square one and that is not fair to the victims or to potential victims which is probably everyone. If I had to start with a ban on vodka to eliminate unsafe drinking and eliminating all alcohol was not an option, than I would settle for saving 300 lives a year, even if the other 7000 would not be saved for the time being. Then when the public noticed the 300 saved lives per year, we could work on the other 7000.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 2:06 pm

Squishy wrote:

If people who murder do so because they don't have a choice, than why is there a Torah prohibition not to murder?

While there are different family dynamics at play when it comes to adoptive families, the murderer still has a choice and presumably by the time he is 19 he has been made aware of the fact that the choice to murder someone is one of the highest crimes that a person can commit.

Those adoptive families who have raised wonderful children who are assets to society are proof that adoption does not have to create mass murderers.

sushilover

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 2:07 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Why do you think the only solutions are bans?

We have good reasons not to ban alcohol even though it leads to far, far more deaths than gun violence per year.

We also have good reasons not to ban guns.

Edited to add: of course I am not comparing guns to alcohol. They are very different. It's a moshal, people.

Last edited by sushilover on Sun, Feb 18 2018, 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 2:12 pm

sushilover wrote:

We have tried banning alcohol during the prohibition but people produced it anyway. As was said before in this thread, banning guns won't stop all gun production and people will sell them, trade them and steal them but it may stop someone from harming others.

It is a shame that something that is created for sport and enjoyment is used for murder and, while alcohol can lead to drunken driving which can kill a busload of people, the purpose of purchasing the alcohol is never for the purpose of killing humans. Those who purchase guns sometimes have human targets in mind.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 2:18 pm

sushilover wrote:

As I have also said upthread, there are other solutions that must go along with bans or restrictions, such as better security and more mental health care, all of which costs plenty of money.

sushilover

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 2:33 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Just to clarify, your position is that all guns should be banned, but we should start with semi-automatic rifles, even if they are used for only 3 percent of homicides.

If you are pushing to end the second amendment, then you should know about all the risks involved.