Models Eat Tissues To Stay Thin

imorethanamother

Thu, Mar 08 2018, 6:35 pm

ruth wrote:

https://forward.com/sisterhood/320209/the-shidduch-crisis-has-led-to-an-orthodox-obsession-with-female-beauty/

THIS. THIS. THIS ARTICLE.

This article should have its own topic. This article hits it out of the park.

I can't tell you how awful it all is. How derogatory and mean shidduchim have become. How parents encourage their sons to have ridiculous expectations, how women themselves buy into belittling women who aren't married. Why do women hurt other women?!

I've seen fat, ugly women who call themselves "shadchans" tell unmarried women to lose weight, to wear more makeup, to dress up all the time. They even want to create an event for single women to outline exactly all the things they're doing wrong ("why don't you get a nose job?").

Meanwhile, when they do decide to set women up, it's always with guys who:
1) Don't have a job and "learn", but they're not serious about either.
2) Are overweight
3) Sometimes have moles on their face - but that's fine.
4) Are divorced 1-3 kids but want single women.
5) Are divorced with 3-18 kids but want a woman with one child, tops. Who's a boy.
6) Are 10-15 years older than the age range they want to marry.

I've honestly had it. I advise my yeshivish children to start dating in high school, before anyone is the wiser. Shidduchim have devolved into madness.

southernbubby

Thu, Mar 08 2018, 7:01 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

If we don't want girls to be turned down because they are overweight than why would girls turn down a boy who is overweight?

Maybe the shadchantas should simply tell the women who they can't help that they don't have anyone suitable to set them up with?

I saw a beautiful girl who was a healthy weight marry a boy 10 years older and another beautiful girl who married a guy nearly 20 years her senior. I have also seen men marry women who were more than a decade their senior!

If the men won't date a larger girl, why are we blaming shadchanim?

Would those fat, ugly women shadchans be attractive at a lower weight or is the weight irrelevant and they are simply ugly?

Is the ugliness physical or spiritual?

Is telling a single woman to wear make-up any more wrong than telling someone to plant flowers if they want to sell their house?

imorethanamother

Thu, Mar 08 2018, 9:13 pm

southernbubby wrote:

If we don't want girls to be turned down because they are overweight than why would girls turn down a boy who is overweight?

Because the die is cast. We've told these women for so long that they're only beautiful when they're very thin, and that being overweight is a terrible thing. We tell them that being overweight equals lazy and unattractive. So is it shocking when they internalize this and apply it to men?

southernbubby wrote:

I saw a beautiful girl who was a healthy weight marry a boy 10 years older and another beautiful girl who married a guy nearly 20 years her senior. I have also seen men marry women who were more than a decade their senior!

That's not the norm. Most women want to marry men close to their own age, and many don't appreciate being set up with much older men.

southernbubby wrote:

Would those fat, ugly women shadchans be attractive at a lower weight or is the weight irrelevant and they are simply ugly?

You're deliberately missing my point. Women who they themselves are not thin or beautiful are telling unmarried girls that the reason they're not married is because of not being thin or beautiful enough. There's a lot of blame. Maybe you don't remember what it's like to be single.

I'm married. I'm not particularly beautiful. I didn't get married because I dressed the part or behaved the part or had some outstanding virtue. I got married because God wanted me to get married, to fulfill whatever role I had to fulfill. But we forget that, and instead we start blaming girls for not doing enough, physically, to attract men. And the very women who perpetrate it are ironically not the ideal themselves.

southernbubby wrote:

Is telling a single woman to wear make-up any more wrong than telling someone to plant flowers if they want to sell their house?

On a date? Sure. Every day, all the time? Do you do that? Are we never allowed to be ourselves?

southernbubby

Thu, Mar 08 2018, 11:13 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

On a date? Sure. Every day, all the time? Do you do that? Are we never allowed to be ourselves?

You asked if I remember being single. I was never in shidduchim. My husband and I became frum together shortly after we were married and I was 22 when we were married.

My weight at the time of my marriage was only 87 pounds so I was rather petite. It had nothing to do with superior eating habits because I didn't eat that healthy. I was, however, relatively active and didn't have a big appetite. I also had a mother who suffered from obesity and I badly wanted to avoid that.

There is a saying which applies to shidduchim which is, "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Shidduchim is like real estate and to sell a house, we often have to make it attractive to the buyer. The buyer isn't going to buy in order to satisfy anyone besides himself. Whether or not shidduchim should be that way or not, is irrelevant. In the days of Tu B'Av where the women danced in the vineyards in borrowed gowns, beauty was one criteria by which the wives were selected, yichus was another criteria, and women who had neither quality were offering good relationships. I am not sure how many men passed up beauty and yichus for a good relationship but it was a choice.

The Torah and Tanach refer to the beauty of some of the women mentioned. We can't deny that beauty is a factor in marriage. That is not something new or from this generation. Adam ha Rishon rejected his first wife and Chava was his second wife. Hashem had tried creating the first wife while Adam watched and found all of that blood and guts to be unattractive so Hashem knocked him out and created Chava while he slept so he would see a complete person and find her beautiful.

Many shadchanim will tell you that there are singles out there who play the game of shidduchim but who really don't want to be married. A single woman "should" be able to run to the grocery without make-up but she might be short changing herself. I have seen shadchanim who are on the lookout everywhere for boys and girls to set up and are more likely to inquire about a girl who looks attractive and put together.

I remember once going to a wedding where the kallah's friends had spent their day in the beauty parlor. One girl, however, came with her hair in an elastic and no make-up. A shadchanit was asking about all of the girls who were all dolled up but showed no interest in the plain girl. The dolled up girls all married within a relatively short period of time but it was a long time before the plain girl got married.

Now in a politically correct perfect world, the shadchanit would have tried just as hard for the plain girl but the shadchanit is a business woman who is trying to make a "sale". Just like she can't easily sell an unattractive house, she can't sell an unattractive person, of either gender.

Not everyone is blessed with beauty but why should a person not make the most of what they have?

imorethanamother

Fri, Mar 09 2018, 2:51 am

southernbubby wrote:

No offense, I'm sure you're a lovely person, but your response mystifies me.

I give examples of singles in acute pain over how they're treated. You respond that maybe they're to blame because they're not beautiful. Because the Torah values beauty because Chava.

Also, you admit you have actually never gone through this process so you have no idea what it's like. But you're here to school everyone on what to do.

Oh, and you were really skinny when you got married because you were active. Not because you had to diet. Got it. Glad I know this.

And finally, you compare the process of getting singles together for the purpose of love, commitment, and shared values to "buying" a woman, much like the real estate property she is.

In short, you're exactly what I'm talking about when I say that women can internalize society's inherent prejudice against their own gender and use it to hurt other women. Instead of, I don't know, standing up for women. We are not cattle for purchase. God runs the world, not maybelline.

And if you want to understand why the Torah sometimes mentions beauty, listen to the shiur by Rabbi Akiva Tatz, on the importance of Queen Esther's beauty. It's on Simpletoremember.com.
Hint! It's not because the only way a woman can get married is if she's beautiful!

southernbubby

Fri, Mar 09 2018, 9:34 am

imorethanamother wrote:

You posted at 2:51 a.m. our time so I assume that it is almost Shabbos for you now and you won't see this until tomorrow night.

The shadchan has two choices;
1) She can tell the woman that she knows of nobody to suggest and therefore spare the woman the indignity of hearing the names of older, previously married, or overweight men.
2) She can offer the woman those men who might accept her.

The shadchan cannot undo society's attitude toward excess weight.

My children were in shidduchim and it was like selling a house. They didn't like being compared to a commodity and at the time, I railed about the attitudes toward lack of yichus.
Now, Chabad, which I am a part of, has no problem bringing people into the community but when it comes to marrying them or their children, that is where BTs find out just what their market value is. Everyone has the right to decide what is important to them and to some people, yichus is extremely important. My only recourse might be to say that if these people want my time and money, they come second and my own kind comes first.

And sorry for getting "mad" but I NEVER said that the ONLY way for a woman to get married is by being beautiful. Sometimes, however, people have to "settle" or look outside that which every woman wants, which a man who is good looking, young, and never married.

And the Torah doesn't mention beauty because every woman must strive to be beautiful. It does, however, describe beauty because beauty is something that Hashem factored into the creation of the world. If you read this week's parsha, the vessels of the Mishkan were created to be beautiful. Beauty does have value but is not the only way that a person can have value.

So if women are going to stand up for women, is that going to mean that female shadchanim will shame, bully, or trick men into dating overweight women? Just how are we going to get them to agree to do that? If we blame their mothers, should we expect them to force their sons to marry women that they are not attracted to? Should the boys be forced to give it a chance?

Why are today's boys aware of what is attractive to the outside world? Is it because of advertising and exposure or is it an innate prejudice?

And BTW, my own sons married girls of varying sizes, not all were super thin.

southernbubby

Fri, Mar 09 2018, 9:43 am

Here is the purpose that the Torah gives to beauty:

JEWISH PRACTICE

LEARNING & VALUES

COMMUNITY & FAMILY

INSPIRATION & ENTERTAINMENT

Search
Learning & Values Questions & Answers Ask the Rabbi Newest Questions The Big Picture
Does Torah Disdain Feminine Beauty?
By Naftali Silberberg
Question:

What is the Jewish take on feminine beauty? Is it something to be ignored and neglected? Hidden behind a burka?

Response:

Not at all. The fact that the Scripture chooses to highlight the beauty of many biblical women – such as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Esther – demonstrates that the Torah ascribes value to beauty; yes, the physical variety too. Indeed, the woman's passion for beauty is a reflection of her very essence and purpose: bringing beauty into all areas of life—from the most spiritual to the most mundane. (See Feminine Beauty for more on this topic.)

But this is only when the physical beauty is seen as only one part of the equation. By focusing exclusively upon a woman's physical beauty, all her other qualities become obscured. Rather than complementing its owner, her beauty debases her. "Like a golden ring in the snout of a swine," goes the proverb, "is a beautiful woman who lacks good sense."1

In the famous Woman of Valor hymn, King Solomon writes, "Charm is false and beauty is futile; a G‑d-fearing woman—she is to be praised."2

There seems to be an extra word in this verse: "she." Poetic license aside, the verse could have said, "...a G‑d-fearing woman is to be praised."

So here is an insightful explanation I have heard: Charm is false and beauty is futile—when it is only a veneer, or when it is the sole point of focus. But if a woman is G‑d fearing, then "she," – I.e., the beauty and charm – is also to be praised! (In Hebrew, a "grammatical gender" language, the word "she" can refer to a noun, such as "beauty.")

IOW, physical beauty is only part of the equation but it is part of the equation!

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 09 2018, 11:23 am

southernbubby wrote:

''

I don't see the excessive dieting in the Chabad community but very overweight people, both men and women, do have a challenge.

I see plenty of people who are not that thin finding shidduchim all the time but it is hard to find a shidduch for the very overweight.

I can't blame that fact on shadchanim.

And there's a difference between morbidly obese, and zaftig but fit and functioning.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking down on the morbidly obese, but could see why people might have concerns re shidduchim. But the pressure to be supermodel thin - which as this thread demonstrates can come at great cost, even if not as extreme as tissues - is simply wrong.
Why do our boys seem to know these things? We're living in an increasingly superficial world, where there isn't discretion either. In my time boys weren't shmoozing about these issues, or sharing their experiences freely.

southernbubby

Fri, Mar 09 2018, 11:47 am

octopus wrote:

But shadchanim have been known to say awful things to girls that are a size 12 because they are not thin enough. I'm sorry that is not okay. In this world it seems you are fat if you are a double digit size.

That seems to be changing though. Years ago a size 12 was viewed as not thin enough in some circles but I don't see that much narrow mindedness anymore.

My girls were small sizes but one was quiet (Hi honey if you are reading this Wave

) and one shadchanit told us it would be an issue for her in shidduchim but she got married at age 20 so it obviously wasn't.

My husband and I are BTs and our lack of yichus was an issue but it is not as much of an issue as it used to be in Lubavitch (although some still will not allow their children to marry someone without yichus). My kids are all BH married, some to people with yichus.

Last edited by southernbubby on Fri, Mar 09 2018, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby

Fri, Mar 09 2018, 11:48 am

PinkFridge wrote:

All a boy has to hear is that his mother is unhappy with her weight or come home from Yeshiva to find the fridge stocked with diet products and he immediately understands that excess weight is something to get rid of.