I am honestly bothered by this

Maya

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 12:44 pm

simba wrote:

I live in Brooklyn where all the awfulness exists and had a beautiful meaningful Purim.
As a elter chossid once said "if it smells like horse dung wherever you go, check the tip of your nose!"

Wait. Didn't you say that the awfulness doesn't exist and that I was making it up and that it's all holy and elevated for everyone except me and nothing to do with any kind of materialism or secularism?

As an elter chossid once said, "when you whitewash the truth, please keep track of what you say when so you don't end up looking like a fool."

crust

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 12:50 pm

imasinger wrote:

I suspect one piece of it is that my understanding of Halloween -- growing up, it was all about dressing up and getting treats -- may be different from yours; reading some people's posts here, it seems like they may have been educated "Halloween is a disgusting non jewish practice", in which case, my comparison would be seen as offensive.

I didn't get that education....
The education I got about Halloween was from my local Jamesway or Kmart.

But even without it being a "disgusting non jewish practice" I do understand why you would want to point out the difference to your kids.

Last edited by crust on Fri, Mar 02 2018, 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

InnerMe

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 12:55 pm

Maya wrote:

Call it quits both. shall ya? No need to get personal.

simba

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 12:55 pm

Maya wrote:

Check my posts. I didn't say it doesn't exist. I said it doesn't define Purim.

imasinger

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 1:00 pm

librarygirl wrote:

Kids upset on Halloween because they didn't get candy, are very different from the people on imamother upset that they didn't get mishloach manot. The imamothers are upset at the lack of relationships, not something superficial like candy.

Kids upset on Halloween just plan a different route for the following year because it's nothing personal.

For many in Jewish communities, on Purim, the way they plan their route is nothing personal either. A person may be closer friends with friend A than friend B but if friend B lives in an area where there are 7 classmates and 10 teachers, then the donor might not make it over to friend A.

The imamothers are interpreting the amount of MM as a symbol of popularity. I'm saying it's not always an accurate connection.

And that lack of MM is almost never helpful to post about.

If someone posts in their own username that they are lonely, and ask if anyone on the board would like to be their friend, then it's likely to yield more practical, positive results.

seeker

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 1:12 pm

amother wrote:

In theory you're right. But we are feeling lonely all year round and Purim is just a trigger or a proof to our loneliness.

This. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to receive more. Well, probably for some kids it might. But I think it's more of a symbolic trigger. Big occasions can really highlight situations that we might avoid dwelling on the rest of the time. Holidays of any kind, weddings, funerals, anything big and meaningful could cause people to start thinking and then needing some imamother-style support.

yogabird

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 1:17 pm

imasinger wrote:

I think people know very well if they didn't get mm because they were out of the way, or because ppl couldn't be bothered thinking about them.

amother

Olive

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 1:26 pm

I see both sides, though I find the premise a bit condescending. Yes, it's not about getting, but if someone literally got none or got extremely few in proportion to how much they gave, do you not see how that would be rather hurtful? And then to tell the people who are getting upset that they just need to change their attitude is rather on the side of gaslighting (pretty sure that's what we'd be calling it if someone posted here that their husband/sister/best friend responded that way to the airing of some grievance). I've honestly never been in that situation. I don't make more than 15 bags and don't get more than that either and am perfectly happy with that. But if I literally received zero, yes, that would upsetting. Not because we need to get something, but because it would show that we're not close enough to anyone in the whole community to have made it onto anyone's list. That would be an awful feeling. I'd wonder if I was even part of any community. The point of MM is to foster community. If someone is being left out, it's not them who's missing the point...

Also, just because someone goes all out on MM and costumes, doesn't mean they're just into the materialism of the day. Now, I can't speak for the MM people (ours are boring- we are mini grape juice plus a few hamentaschen in a paper bag people), but we do go nuts on the costumes and not because we're trying to do a kosher Halloween. We are a family of avid cosplayers (year round, especially when we have a convention to attend) and not only does Purim offer a religious space for that outlet, but it actually has a deep spiritual meaning! We can cosplay to the max because the day is about the hidden, the absurd, the not-what-it-seems. It imbues a hobby that generally means a lot to us with kedusha. Purim resonates really deeply with us. Maybe it doesn't look that way because we put a lot of thought and effort into the costumes, so I'm here to ask you to stop judging. Pretty wrappers don't necessarily mean materialism or missing the point.

MiracleMama

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 1:32 pm

imasinger wrote:

Growing up not frum, it was a great source of pride to me during and following the BT process that Purim is not Halloween.

Halloween was all about dressing up, knocking on people's doors, and getting treats.

I proudly taught my kids that we as Jews dress up and GIVE treats to others. Sure it's nice when they give back to us, but that's not the real point of the exercise.

I spend time on theme and poem every year because I hope it brings a smile to people.

And yet, every year, I see threads where people are worried/upset for themselves and their children that they didn't get enough MM on Purim.

Did I teach my children wrong? Is it really like Halloween after all?

Look, on one level I don't even want anyone's MM because it's 97% stuff I don't want going into my family's body and this morning it was already all packed up and out the door.

But on another level, it feels good that the doorbell keeps ringing and the pile of junk is growing. Because it means that we have friends and neighbors who are thinking of us.

Is this the real measure of how many friends you have and how good your friends are? No. Not really. Dropping off $1 or two worth of junk food does not a close friendship make. But I can tell you from experience from before we moved to this community, it doesn't feel good to be largely ignored and it's especially sad for the children.

simba

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 1:35 pm

InnerMe wrote:

Call it quits both. shall ya? No need to get personal.

I'm thinking about it! It is not personal at all.

I find it disturbing that this too is a platform to make negative snides towards "some Jews".

I beleive Maya meant this;
"While many people lose focus on what the real meaning of purim is, they focus on the materialistic aspect and use it as an excuse to drink excessively and allow young children to do the same etc... Purim has only external similarities to Halloween but is far from it in meaning and holiness. Try and focus and teach your kids the story, meaning and mitzvos and your Purim will be as meaningful as mine was"

Instead; "Purim is our Halloween "

Not an elter chosid but a lot of mommies a lot of times " if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing"

Maya

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 1:41 pm

simba wrote:

I'm thinking about it! It is not personal at all.

I find it disturbing that this too is a platform to make negative snides towards "some Jews".

I beleive Maya meant this;
"While many people lose focus on what the real meaning of purim is, they focus on the materialistic aspect and use I think as an excuse to drink excessively and allow young children to do the same etc... Purim has only external similarities to Halloween but is far from it in meaning and holiness. Try and focus and teach your kids the story, meaning and mitzvos and your Purim will be as meaningful as mine was"

Instead; "Purim is our Halloween "

Not an elter chosid but a lot of mommies a lot of times " if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing"

I don't need you to tell everyone what you believe I meant. I can do that without your help, thank you very much, but I do appreciate your efforts.

oliveoil

Fri, Mar 02 2018, 2:18 pm

It has nothing to do with Halloween.

The people who are upset are not upset that they didn't get chocolate or candy.

They're upset that they weren't on anyone's radar. No one thought of them. It's a confirmation that in all their relationships they are less important to the other person than that person is to them. It's not a once-a-year feeling, but it's an "I can't convince myself things are otherwise" feeling.

Mommyg8

Sat, Mar 03 2018, 8:39 pm

ven wrote:

Just as a quick side note halloween is a strictly american custom, it has nothing to do with christianity . It is only " celebrated" in the USA only . Not in europa , africa , asia etc .. it has nothing to do with religion

I don't think Halloween is based on Christianity - it's more likely based on paganism. I don't have time now to do the research and post links, but if another imamother wants to do it...

Imasinger, you could say this about every mitzvah that we do. People can "do" Sukkkos just to show off their fancy food and elaborate decorated sukkos, or for the men the "nicer" esrogim, or they can focus on the inner meaning of sukkos. Most (hopefully) do both. Judaism is not a religion that we have to pick - physicality or spirituality. We hope to have both, and we also hope to focus on the spiritual side. Not everyone is perfect, and not everyone does things 100% right - but we are all humans, and sometimes we do better, and sometimes.. not so much.

I think the difference between Halloween and Purim is exactly what each holiday DOES symbolize - focusing on the inner meanings of each. To focus on two things that we have in common... well, like crust says, we all eat and sleep, we're all human beings.... hopefully it's what we're like INSIDE that makes us different.

If YOU are not finding spirituality in the holiday, then I think, like Simba says, it's time to look within.

amother

Blue

Sat, Mar 03 2018, 9:03 pm

Question for those who don't find spirituality in Purim: What are your feelings towards other Yomim Tovim?

Is it only Purim you have an issue with or do you have difficultly seeing the spirituality in other Yomim Tovim as well? e.g. Does Chanuka also remind you of the non-Jewish holiday that time of the year? Is Shavous just about finding a new cheesecake recipe?

Do you have difficulty seeing the spirituality in any purely physical act?

I don't mean this as a springboard for more imamother conversation.This is just food for thought.