Ask Away About Other Communities- Not Chassidim

amother

Red

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:14 pm

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

I may be the only one with questions. This one is for families that have TV and allow the kids tv time. In today's day and age TV is full of filth . Lots of talk about zex and cursing. How do you keep the divide and how do your kids stay on the path of Yiddishkeit and frumkeit with all the garbage that they are exposed to? I see from my own family members that the kids with television are busy with boyfriends and girlfriends at age four and up. That is so young for kids to have their heads full of that stuff. Isn't harder to have gedarim once they are exposed? I am not naive . I'm want to hear how you keep them motivated in pursuing ruchnius when they are exposed to a very exciting world that non tv kids are not exposed to.

You learn early on to make distinctions. You can use your tv to watch vile things, or you can watch educational shows. It's like shopping in a regular supermarket. You look for the kosher things and know what's not for you. You don't pretend that treif doesn't exist.

I'm not sure that tv and boy-girl stuff are necessarily related. However, learning to see members of the other gender as humans before marriage can make for smarter dating and stronger marriages. Women aren't objects. Does it always succeed? No, but it's not like the opposite approach is foolproof either. How many yeshivish women on this site have husbands who watch inappropriate things on the internet?

Bottom line: the attitude isn't that everything in the world is more enticing than Torah, so we need to keep you locked inside an ivory (black and white?) tower. It's that Torah is the most wonderful thing of all, and you should use everything in the world as a tool for avodas Hashem.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:16 pm

So my problem is that I’m yeshivish, dh in Kollel, a few kids, and I need help understanding my own crowd. First of all The amount of money needed to sustain this lifestyle is completely out of hand. I don’t understand how it’s done! And the expectations and pressure is also pretty extreme. Couple of years ago I realized it was all so much pressure and stress and so I must be doing something wrong. So I went to a psychologist. She couldn’t help me. She agreed there’s a ton of pressure and she didn’t agree with my opinion that everyone else was managing so well she just reminded me that I’m very young, trying to do too much. (School, work, kids, pregnant, high standard of housekeeping, high standard of motherhood, high standard of wife, chesed, help with kids schools, help my siblings with shidduchim, sick family member, other miscellaneous drama, what am I missing? how does everyone do it?????

SuperWify

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:19 pm

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

Now a question for the sefardim. Do you spend hours and hours making all those intricate dishes, like stuffed grape leaves, kibbe, and all the traditional foods , from scratch . Or are you really fooling us and taking it from the freezer section at your local supermarket ?

Lol your sefardi knowledge is extremely limited. The foods you mentioned are of Syrian origin. There are lots of other types of sephardim and each group has its unique foods.

Mommyg8

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:22 pm

amother wrote:

Ok, so you just highlighted - in bright yellow! - the problems with the kollel lifestyle as it is lived today.

Let me tell you a little secret - you don't have to do it! You have to pick what's important to you, and stick with that. If you can't manage the kollel lifestyle - it should not be a pressure on everyone to learn forever. This is wrong, and I don't know any gedolim who would have advocated for this, at all! You mentioned school, work, kids, pregnant, high standard of housekeeping - I'm not even going further and I can't keep up! Obviously, you will have to pick and choose. School and work at the same time? Possibly not. High standard of housekeeping? Maybe not, or maybe it's time to hire more help. Maybe it's time to go on BC.

I don't think that what I am saying is radical - it's truly just common sense. You can't look over your shoulder at how everyone else is living their lives. The only life you live is your own.

amother

Linen

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:32 pm

are there any yekkee communities outside of NY. My dh would probably fit in well with a yekee community but he likes living OOT...it's a dilemma. He's not yekee by birth just very punctual and "straight". When his relative made a simcha she told his sister that she is telling her a later time then everyone else because she knows that she and her family (including my dh) are punctual and she doesn't want them to get there and no one else be there yet!

SuperWify

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

That’s why a lot of people aren’t learning long term nowadays. The minute Totty’s ATM is closed the lifestyle (expensive clothes, tuitions, lots of kids, nice home, cars and eating out) ant sustainable.

And most women are NOT superwomen.

Somethings got to give.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:34 pm

SuperWify wrote:

Lol your sefardi knowledge is extremely limited. The foods you mentioned are of Syrian origin. There are lots of other types of sephardim and each group has its unique foods.

Or Temani, or Lebanese.

In my old shul, all the women would get together in the shul kitchen and take over. They made all these wonderful Sephardic pastries in the Rhodes tradition. Tons of them! They work day and night to get enough of them for everybody. Everything was made from scratch, even the puff pastry.

Then there would be a huge bake sale just before Purim, and the lines to get in went around the block! People you hardly ever see at services show up once a year just to get these treats. And that's not even counting all of the pre-orders.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:44 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

so here I’ll go in to detail and you’ll realize why I thought something was wrong with me. Birth control: yes!! My oldest was 5 when I had my third. Do the math. That’s pretty spaced! School: online work: part time money: plenty from parents and in laws standards of housekeeping, wifehood, motherhood: isn’t my primary job akeres habayis? Most imp. Thing I can do? My tachlis as a woman? (I’m not reading from high school or sem notes) tuition break - well, I better volunteer then. Chesed - makes the world go round and I’m pretty blessed, so how can I not help those less fortunate? I have no mental illnesses bH or family issues, great dh, and in theory a “good candidate” for this lifestyle. Dh is an excellent and dedicated learner. Now, if dh were to go to work - I dont see these problems being resolved at all! Going to work doesn’t mean having plenty of money at all! And yes, I think the life I’m trying to live IS what the BY schools are advocating.

Mommyg8

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 9:58 pm

amother wrote:

My husband is not in kollel, has not been in kollel for many years, and believe me, I don't think it's easier this way! We both still have to work - and how is that easier? At least the kollel wives have their husband's home bein hasedorim and bein hazmanim.

I have an issue with the BY schools - and I am not the only one. I recently had this conversation with my friend - who's husband learned in kollel for 20 years (and she's very definitely pro learning) - and she told me something her daughter had been told in seminary - that it's possible to have both - learning and living nicely as well. We talked this over, and agreed, maybe there are a few here and there - the lucky few - who do have both, but for the vast majority - not. I don't know if what they teach in school is always so realistic. I had a teacher who told us that the money magically appears. Now, we've been in Kollel, and we managed financially, but we did have to pinch the pennies and balance the checkbook - it was no magic.

Just one question - I have friends who's husband's are working, and I don't think they have it much easier. They are also working and doing everything you say. Why is this different?

Fox

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 10:03 pm

amother wrote:

Now, if dh were to go to work - I dont see these problems being resolved at all! Going to work doesn’t mean having plenty of money at all! And yes, I think the life I’m trying to live IS what the BY schools are advocating.

I really should take my hands off the keyboard and walk away. I really tried to, I promise. I can hear Imamothers' eyes as they roll them: "OMG, Fox is gonna start one of those long lectures again! Can somebody start a thread on politics or Regents Exams and maybe distract her?!"

The problem isn't you. It isn't the Yeshivish world or even the frum world in general. As Second Wave feminists used to say back in the early 70s, "the personal is political." In other words, the problems you are having are not personal issues; they are signs of problems in the larger society.

There's history and economics involved, so hold on tight.

Right after WWII, the productivity of the U.S. rose exponentially, and with it, the standard of living. For a whole slew of reasons, that productivity started to slow down in the mid-70s. Oh, it has fits and starts, but nothing like the economic climate of the 50s and 60s known as "the go-go years."

So now we had a problem: we had costly lifestyles that we wanted to maintain, but not enough growth in the economy to sustain them. So all the factors pointed toward getting women into the workforce. We could raise productivity and hang on to our lifestyles for a little longer.

It's worked out okay economically, but not so much in terms of women's lives. It takes two incomes to support a family, and a wife's income is not a financial cushion or a slush fund. It's fish for Shabbos. Benefits like employer-paid health insurance might as well have been washed away in the Malbul, so many women can't afford to leave a specific job or employer.

Whatever flexibility women once had is largely gone.

This is not a reflection on whether things were better or worse in the good ol' days. They were both. But the stress and frustration you feel have less to do with you and more to do with the unique era in which you live.

amother

Red

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 10:28 pm

Fox wrote:

This is a thoughtful analysis, but I think it needs some fine-tuning. In the great years of the 50s and 60s, a family could buy a house and live on one income. But the average house was much smaller than it is today, and so was the average religious family.

Fox

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

Exactly. Not only was everything "less" than it is now, we weren't paying for computers and cell phones and all kinds of things most of us now consider necessities. We weren't taking on student loans or enormous mortgages.

Some of it is actually circular. We spend more on restaurants and take-out food in part because most people don't have the time or energy to prepare food at home.

Without productivity gains, we're basically living on borrowed prosperity. That said, none of us seem eager to return to the standards of the 50s and 60s. Instead, we tweak the edges of our lifestyles and hope for the best.

crust

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 10:52 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe it depends where you lived?

In the 50s and 60s, both of my grandparents were raising between 10 and 13 kids each, owned nice size homes in Brooklyn that costed 20-30k, had a grocery bill of $29 a week and paid a few bucks for tuition.
They were the upper middle class.

How long has it been since a home in Brooklyn was sold for 30k or a weeks worth of groceries for a family of 14 was available for 29 bucks?
When was the last time that an upper middle class family was able to breathe like my grandparents?

The only thing that didn't change that drastically is the income.

amother

Red

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 11:00 pm

crust wrote:

First, those were unusual family sizes, even in Brooklyn. Second, what were they earning? Third, what were the groceries? I'm betting no prepared dips and precut veggies. Fourth, what were the facilities and services in the schools? We haven't even gotten to expensive clothes and sheitels and household help. What kinds of weddings did all those children have? Expenses have risen, but so have standards.

giselle

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 11:07 pm

Looks like I’m late to the party, but I promised to answer questions. And I’m not going to whitewash things because that’s exactly what I disliked in the other threads.

I can respond to the questions about people looking miserable and overwhelmed with too many kids. That unfortunately exists and is a huge problem. However, much of the yeshivish world is becoming much more aware of this and many yeshivish people go on bc as needed. So yay for progress. Sometimes that’s all we can hope for. To be fair, I was raised in that system although I guess not as extreme as others. And I was taught absolutely crazy things. It can’t be denied. Those who deny it are either simply in denial or have very bad memories. I didn’t exactly stick with the system - my kids do go to bais Yaakovs and yeshivas but somewhat more “liberal” ones if that really exists where I live. I suppose I would fit into the JPF category, a term I learned from this site. So some might like to see me as angry or whatever term makes them feel good. The only things that “anger” me are seeing ppl who are still being brainwashed by the system bec they are miserable. And many of them don’t have easy internet access, so the posters who say people are happy are generally not the miserable ones. (Interestingly the opposite of what people are saying about chasidim - that the happy ones are not on imamother. With yeshivish ppl I think it may be the other way around.)

So yes, problems in every system, but the difference being that most of us who don’t like it are able to do our own thing without being ostracized and hopefully know the difference between Halacha and chumra. I hope my post is not taken the wrong way. I try very hard not to write things that people will jump on. But it’s late and I’m not taking the time I usually try to take to reread and rewrite.

Mommyg8

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 11:23 pm

amother wrote:

Even if you make all your food from scratch, don't have household help or expensive clothes or expensive shaitels, the cost of living is STILL much higher than it was then. Housing prices - through the roof. Health insurance costs - ten times the price (at least). Tuition - much higher as well. So the old way of life is not do-able in the year 2018, no matter how many places you try to cut costs.

amother

Black

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 11:24 pm

giselle wrote:

And many of them don’t have easy internet access, so the posters who say people are happy are generally not the miserable ones. (Interestingly the opposite of what people are saying about chasidim - that the happy ones are not on imamother. With yeshivish ppl I think it may be the other way around.)

I'm the only one in my Yeshivish family who has internet and actually they are much happier people than I am. (Nothing to do with the fact of having internet or lack thereof. Just referring to general simchas hachaim and being happy with their lot in life.)

There is going to be happy and unhappy people in every society. As well as advantages and flaws in each different sect.

Boca00

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 11:28 pm

amother wrote:

For sure. I have plenty of friends with no internet access, living similar lives to me, who are plenty happy as well.

Giselle- my school experiences were vastly different than yours. (My long-term memory hasn't been affected by mommy brain so it's not that.) OOT schools are just not taught the same way at all.

Last edited by Boca00 on Mon, Mar 05 2018, 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total