Ask Away About Other Communities- Not Chassidim

amother

Black

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 10:21 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Of course incomes changed drastically.

We were staunchly middle class. But when my mother chose a house that cost $14,200, my father was horrified -- "we're not rich!" And FTR, that was a row home. The detached homes on half an acre, just a few blocks away over the county line, were $15,500, and that difference was insurmountable.

In 1960, hourly wages were under $3. Median family income was under $6000 (about $38,000 in today's dollars).

But, the house that your father deemed for rich people, was just over two years of that income!

Nowadays, houses cost far more than double $38,000.

Therein lies the problem - Housing prices have risen far more than wages have.

amother

Oak

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 10:37 am

I think this is a very healthy discussion and no one is bashing. Our standard today are so high and if you want to manage it all, there are going to be many who will be stressed out. I don’t think it’s because of Kolel standards. I think it is across the community of many different Frum families. Not everyone is super Mom.
Will I get egg on my face if I wonder out loud if this has to do with so many leaving the ways in which they were brought up? Or those buckling in various ways?
What better way then being open here, so we can have healthy expressions and perhaps be encouraged to make it work in our homes in aphysical and spiritual way.

amother

Red

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

From 1950 to 2000, median house prices in the US hovered around 2.2 times the median salary. Now it's about 3.3, though much higher on the coasts. So it is harder for young families to move into home ownership everywhere. However, median house sizes have also gone up 1000 square feet since 1973, to nearly 5000 feet.

amother

Black

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 10:45 am

amother wrote:

I live in the UK and housing prices have risen far more than that. My parents bought a house in London twenty years ago for £100,000. It's now worth close to a million.

And people are buying smaller houses, not bigger. Because it is so expensive. And it's still many times more the price.

mfb

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 10:51 am

amother wrote:

The amount is compared to salaries. Houses in Brooklyn are also selling for 10x the amount of years ago. But salary has increased somewhat to.

SixOfWands

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

But the median income in the US isn't $38,000. Its $56,500. And yes, you can purchase a lovely home in much of the US for that.

3br, 2 baths. Asking $129,000

3BR, 2 baths. Asking $140,000

The world is not Brooklyn

Fox

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 3:18 pm

I'm sure many of you have previously read it, but if you haven't, I highly recommend Malcom Gladwell's Outliers: The Story of Success. Gladwell gets bashed a fair amount, mostly by less-successful writers, but I've always found his books and articles to be relatively thought-provoking.

The primary thesis of Outliers is that we tend to give people whom we deem "successful" a little too much credit for their success, and we tend to give people whom we deem "unsuccessful" more blame than they really deserve.

He doesn't claim that individual perserverence and hard work are unimportant; a secondary thesis is that time-on-task is a critical part of success. However, those factors alone are not enough.

This message should resonate with frum Jews. After all, we profess to believe that success, however we might define it, comes only from Hashem. While our hishtadlus is necessary, it is not enough.

But most of us don't really believe that. Or at least we don't act like we believe it. So many people, like some of the posters in this column, feel like failures if they're not wealthy, thin, perfect wives, perfect mothers, fantastic cooks and homemakers, perfect hostesses, and dabble in hedge fund investing during their free time. They feel as if they are the problem, and if they'd just get their acts together, they would be all these things. Or they rail against unseen forces in their communities that seem to be harboring these expectations.

The Torah (or Malcolm Gladwell, if you prefer) tells us that we shouldn't respect people based on their outcomes but on their efforts. Sometimes I think we desperately need a campaign, complete with asifas and articles and the usual hoopla, to remind us all of that.

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 7:48 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Now I just have to ask...

Is there such a thing as a shy Lubavitcher? I have never met one who wasn't super-outgoing. How would it work with shlichus and approaching strangers if you are shy?

(I decided I could ask this about Lubavitch as I don't think all the "Chassidish threads" were geared to them, and this isn't controversial.)

Definitely! It's just that we are encouraged to reach out and engage with others. I am a shlucha and am naturally introverted and shy. I push myself to go out of my comfort zone.

dancingqueen

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 8:03 pm

I like this thread! Re: the tv question, first of all you know tv is passé already right? Everything is available on the internet and streaming. Wink

My kids are young still at the cartoon phase but even now I would veto a program if it went against my values (too violent, rude). As they get older I will set limits as well.

But in general, I think being a little worldly is a good thing. It’s a different hashkafa.

Shoshana37

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 8:11 pm

icebreaker wrote:

My kids watch tv but nothing as exciting as what you describe lol. My eldest does watch the Investigation Discovery Channel because she wants to go into forensics so whenever it’s her turn for the tv, I can expect shes watching something on ID. My two youngest still watch cartoons and as a family, we do like watching science shows (our current favorite is Blue Planet on BBC America). We’re not a Kardashian, reality-tv watching family. We only have 1 tv and I’m aware of what my kids watch. That being said, my eldest daughter is in the process of figuring out what she wants to do in life (including her religious observance). But I don’t think that has anything to do with tv watching as much as me and my ex being completely accepting of any different paths our children decide to make in life as long as it’s not illegal and they’re doing it for themselves and not anyone else. If they decide to move more left of where we are, cool. More right, cool.

Thank you I am happy to see I’m not the only one... I’ll support my children with what ever path they take as long as it’s legal and they are happy

Shoshana37

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 8:20 pm

Jewel22 wrote:

I'm Sephardi (gorsky/kavkaz) I don't know if anyone here has heard of us because we are kind of a small community but most Sephardim has similar foods so we also do and yes we make it from scratch. My mom my in laws make these food mostly for Shabbat and I also try.

I’m sefardi as well and yes we do make everything from scratch. My husband knows the difference between frozen food and homemade 😜

keym

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 8:29 pm

Im finding this thread so fascinating and so respectful.
This question is for MO women but really it goes for everyone.
When you say you will support your children no matter their path, does that include moving over to the right even extremely? Are you concerned about your kids going "kollel" or whatever? If your child started keeping CY or certain hechsherim, would you encourage them or guilt them out of it.

The question is really for everyone on every derech

Im yeshivish. And while I hope my children dont move much to the left of me, if im being really honest, it would probably really get to me if my kids became more "extreme" than me. And I have to work on that.
So thats where my question is coming from.

keym

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 8:51 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I was once at a bucharian wedding and it was the funnest wedding ever. You are expected to pay for your plate. I was told it’s that way in some Russian circles too.

I knew about the "paying for the plate" thing. But when I went to a Bucharian wedding it shocked me that the wedding money goes to the parents (if they paid for the wedding) and not the chassan snd kallah (like im used to.)
Also I believe Bucharim throw a huge sheva brachos hosted by the chassan's side and the kalla is expected to wear her wedding gown again.

Mommyg8

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 9:07 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

But the median income in the US isn't $38,000. Its $56,500. And yes, you can purchase a lovely home in much of the US for that.

3br, 2 baths. Asking $129,000

3BR, 2 baths. Asking $140,000

The world is not Brooklyn

Six, I'm willing to bet any money you want that the median income in the area around the houses you pictured is not $56,500.

There are cheaper houses elsewhere (true, the whole world doesn't live in Brooklyn), but are there jobs elsewhere? Good jobs?

Boca00

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 9:34 pm

keym wrote:

I wouldn't mind if my kids moved more to the left or right of me as long as they stayed religious and didn't look down at us for not being "frum enough".

crust

Wed, Mar 07 2018, 1:35 am

Boca00 wrote:

I wouldn't mind if my kids moved more to the left or right of me as long as they stayed religious and didn't look down at us for not being "frum enough".

I think about this alot.
In yiddish there's a saying; voos men shimft doos koift men. What you preach against is what you will end up buying.

I know that its very hard for me to get through to people with a certain mindset. Therfore I always think what if one of my kids or thier spouses turns into something like that?

For years I thought I have control over this. I thought I'll talk to them I'll educate and explain.

As I get older though, I realize that;
A. Some kids are just not searchers period. They dislike crawling into the depth of every nook and cranny of yiddishkeit. They are ok no they love! to just go with the flow, stay on the surface, do what everyone else is doing and fit in.

Trying to make them be something they're not is the same type of abuse as forcing a child to be less of a searcher and to follow blindly.

B. if I think none of my kids will be frummer than me in any which way, I am being delusional!

C. if I am an accepting person, I have to be able to also accept something more to the right than my liking.

D. A child taking on different hashkafos than the ones s/he was raised with is just as out of my control as a child going to the far left c"v is.