Dh struggling with proof of Torah

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amother

Denim

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 10:06 am

My dh has recently come across bible criticism online. He got very upset that he read there has been no archeological proof of almost anything in the Torah. Does anyone know more about this topic?

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 1:22 pm

We don't prove the Torah from archeology, which is extremely unreliable. We have better proofs than that. But to address the question, here's an interesting article. https://ohr.edu/explore_judais...../2053

momnaturally

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 1:27 pm

I believe there are archeological proofs.
The biggest one is the existence of the entire world. If you really break it down there is not any explanation that is anything close to as good as the Torah perspective. It is by far the best explanation.
I wonder though why did reading this bother dh ?
Why was he looking in the first place ?
I have a lot to say on this topic.
If he has questions I am happy to share what I have learned. I have asked many questions...and gotten many answers.

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 1:31 pm

momnaturally wrote:

I wonder though why did reading this bother dh ?
Why was he looking in the first place ?

ITA. The internet has all kinds of sites that make all kinds of claims. 9/11 conspiracy theory sites, white supremacist sites, you name it. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt and both sides researched.

IME nothing good can come of reading cynical blogs that are out to disprove the Torah. There is plenty of proof if you're looking for it, and unfortunately plenty of cynicism and bitterness if you fall into that rabbit hole.

How much experience does your dh have with the internet?

rydys

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 2:26 pm

There are many examples of archiological evidence of Torah events. You can get in touch with people at Aish Hatorah who can discuss this with him. They reference it often in their talks as "outside evidence" of the truth of Torah.

amother

Denim

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 2:28 pm

For example, there has been no archeological proof of our exodus from Egypt, wandering in the desert for 40 years, or Har Sinai. He says that is so fundamental to our faith, so the fact that there is no proof really bothers him.

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 2:30 pm

amother wrote:

The link I posted directly answers this question

amother

Denim

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 2:35 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for this, I emailed him the article.

leah233

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 2:41 pm

amother wrote:

Being that they were living a total supernatural experience surrounded by Anneni H'Kovod and producing no waste as the Pesukim say, I would be extremely surprised if there was archeological proof of the time in the Midbor.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 2:47 pm

I used to look to find concrete proofs the Torah is legit. I thought that if I talk to smart people that accept the Torah they will explain what they understand to me and then I'll understand as well. I was mistaken. There is no indisputable concrete proof. All the proofs have holes in them. It's up to us to accept the proofs as is and not think about them to much. If your dh digs to deep he will be disappointed. Just appreciate the frum lifestyle and all it offers. Don't expect to really understand things.

Optimystic

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 3:16 pm

amother wrote:

My dh has recently come across bible criticism online. He got very upset that he read there has been no archeological proof of almost anything in the Torah. Does anyone know more about this topic?

Hashem created the world with ten statements.
The Torah contains more than five thousand.

I was raised Conservative and completely taken in by world-based Bible criticism for years. That criticism, reliance on archaeology, and so forth and so on is based on dependence on the world as we can understand it rather than depending on Hashem and realizing that even this world, created with ten statements, is utterly beyond our limited comprehension.

It can be very hard to get out of the human perspective box, and I will admit I still slip back into it once in a while. A casual reading of Torah can uncover all kinds of apparent contradictions, and it is only with deeper understanding that those contradictions are resolved. We shouldn't be surprised that there can be apparent contradictions between the Torah and what we think we see in the world. In order to be frum, I have to believe it is possible to resolve the contradictions, and I do, even if I don't always know how.

Trying to view the Torah through archaeology is like trying to understand a loved one through a single text message.

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

This is simply not true. For one who is being intellectually honest, there are firm proofs of the Torah's truth. You might have to do your own reading, or find the right people, but there are answers. These proofs are not archeological, though there is plenty in archeology that upholds what it says in the Torah.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 3:34 pm

amother wrote:

Can you provide any firm proof?

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 3:40 pm

amother wrote:

Can you provide any firm proof?

There are many, and it's not something to be addressed in a 2-minute imamother post. I strongly recommend the book The Eye of a Needle. The aish.com website has plenty of material as well. I'm sure others will have recommendations for you, as well.

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 3:44 pm

I also want to recommend a series of shiurim called Da Ma Shetashiv Leatzmecha, by Rabbi Dovid Sapirman.

momnaturally

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 4:07 pm

It's very simple. There is no source or any other recorded explanation how the world began and why it was created. The Torah provides a very solid explanation for everything.
Are there questions and things we don't understand ? yes.
However we would be nonsensical to believe we could understand the entire creation of the world and Torah if we are only a small detail of it.
The very fact that there is so much overwhelming specific information and depth in the Torah that is found no where else itself shows how it is obviously above and beyond anything else we have in this world.
It's sheer superiority totally overwhelms any other ridiculous theories people posit.

Sort of like imagine you have 2 people one is brilliant and everything he says makes so much sense. Even what we don't fully understand that he says we can tell that it has a lot of deep thought and intellect behind it and the more he talks the more clear and convincing he is.
Now imagine the only alternative ways of thinking to him were a couple of drunkards or idiots. There way of thinking is obviously so flawed even standing by itself certainly so compared to the genius next to them.
It is really the same thing.
Anyone who invest a real genuine effort to have some understanding in Torah sees pretty quickly how ludicrous anything else is compared to it. Even if we don't understand everything.

amother

Gray

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 4:09 pm

Has he come across Rabbi Lawrence Keleman?

Mommyg8

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 5:03 pm

amother wrote:

This post is completely unfair and unhelpful. If this is your reality, there is absolutely NO necessity to share your feelings with the rest of society, keep this to yourself!

Yes, there will never be proof, because that's just not possible. Can you prove that you are alive? Maybe this world is just a dream? Is ANYTHING provable in concrete? There is NO proof, of anything, that is so puncture proof that NOBODY can find holes. At the very least, there are some underlying assumptions to ANY proofs. But I hardly think that this is what the op was referring to, it seems to be referring to some stupid claims that are easily refutable, so no need to go through the whole intellectual journey.

Isn't one of the ultimate questions - Do I exist? Do you? How do you know? Are you just a dream? Maybe you're a figure in my dream, maybe I'm a figure in yours? Maybe it's all just our imagination? So there are unlimited questions that may not have satisfactory answers, if that is what you are referring to.

But as for excellent, convincing arguments - yes, there are many, many good, convincing arguments that the Torah exists, that Hashem created the world, and that we are His nation. There will never be iron-clad PROOF, but there is no iron-clad PROOF of anything.

I don't have the info now (maybe after pesach), but another excellent site is simpletoremember.com, among many others.

In any case, the bottom line here is that those who are looking for trouble usually find it. Your dh should not be reading the info on these sites, and to be honest, it's just plain silly to take anything that is written on the internet at face value.

Maya

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 5:23 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

This post is completely unfair and unhelpful. If this is your reality, there is absolutely NO necessity to share your feelings with the rest of society, keep this to yourself!

.

This premise is ridiculous. There is no reason why posters must only write about things that you agree with. Why must she keep her opinions to herself, just because you're afraid to hear them?

I actually found that post to be the most helpful, and also the most truthful, for anyone struggling with this. That they can live and appreciate the frum lifestyle DESPITE not having archeological proof.

Mommyg8

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 5:26 pm

Maya wrote:

Maya, she was not talking about archeological proof. There is PLENTY of archeological proof, so I see that you have no idea what you are talking about. And no, it is NOT okay to appreciate the "frum lifestyle", as you put it, and have doubts in emunah. Not okay at all. And I am completely NOT afraid to hear them, I just think that what she wrote is COMPLETEY misleading, and not true at all. She wasn't talking about archeological proofs, she went off on her own tangent.

And... I have just as much of a right to post my response as she has to post her ideas.

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