Are people basically good?

imasinger

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 7:54 am

I think both Torah perspective plus my own experience demonstrates the constant tug between yetzer hatov and yetzer hara. Many, perhaps most people are wonderful in some areas, virtuous beyond the average; yet morally lacking in others.

I just read a review of a new book on US politics, Secret Empires, which sheds light into some pretty dark corners on both sides of the political spectrum.

1) It's awfully hard to withstand temptation.

2) We almost never lose the ability to do teshuvah.

yo'ma

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 8:02 am

My feelings on the matter are twofold. What is good and people aren't neccesarily good, but not bad either.

What is considered good? We as religious jews get our morals from hashem, the torah, so we consider that good. Other cultures get it from somewhere else and things that we wouldn't consider as good, maybe they do.

I don't think people try to be bad, but like the previous thing, we have to be taught to be good. Most children automatically are selfish and a lot of other bad traits, but we teach them how not to be. They don't do this because they're bad, but because they don't know any better.

Is that clear enough? Does that make any sense?

yo'ma

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 8:03 am

yo'ma wrote:

In addition, if we have to be taught what is good and what isn't, does that make us bad?

Laiya

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 8:12 am

yo'ma wrote:

In addition, if we have to be taught what is good and what isn't, does that make us bad?

I think children are naturally self-centered, and we teach them to be civilized.

But I think most children are also innately compassionate and want to do the right thing. We develop what is already there.

amother

Aubergine

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 8:32 am

YES!

I believe that people are born betzelem Elokim. That means that beneath everything and anything that is going on with them is a hint of G-dliness, purity, and good. Sometime you (or they) have to dig very deep to find it.

I am a high school principal and try to remind myself (and my students) of this during any disciplinary interactions. It is my guiding light.

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 8:40 am

It's a dichotomy. We have a tzelem Elokim, but otoh there's yetzer lev ha'adam ra minurav.
Rabbi Tatz spoke on ethics last year, it should be on the Ohr Samaiyach website. His thesis was that we do have good inclinations to make ethical decisions but without the guidance of the Torah we will not always make the best decisions.

Chayalle

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 9:34 am

A woman whom I very much respect always says "People are not evil. They are victims of their own circumstances."

I think we can't judge people. We don't know what they went thru in life.

It makes me think of my own paternal grandparents - wonderful people in many ways, who accomplished some tremendous things (like helping many families escape dangerous, anti-semitic Communist Romania for the free world in the aftermath of WWII) but difficult in other ways. Both of them went thru the Holocaust as teens. My mother A"H always stressed to us that we have to honor them, and look away from their mishegasim, because of what they went thru.

Her attitude helped me have a great relationship with them, and sort of laugh off some of their idiosyncrasies.....

amother

Pearl

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 2:50 pm

I think most ppl(yehudim) are not good. I'm basing this on how ppl interact with others, beyn Adam lchaveiro. Peopke are very judge mental and judge outer appearances and are not caring/sensitive....of anyone who is different from them in any way. The yehudim have so many labels such that it is another way ppl get judged. And ppl have such "hard rules" about every little thing such that if someone doesn't follow it, they are looked down at and not valued.

Also ppl are always only thinking of themselves and their needs. They then get insulted when someone does abc to them but fail to realize when they do abc to someonelse. They want to take and take"" from others(not just physical or money) but then dont want to give back something the person wants. This also has to do with respecting boundaries of others and not taking advantage of others.

amother

Babyblue

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 5:56 pm

amother wrote:

Reading this post you don't come across as being a non judgmental person yourself.

amother

Pearl

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 6:53 pm

amother wrote:

Reading this post you don't come across as being a non judgmental person yourself.

The only ppl I judge are the ppl who act like this who take and take and critucize and critucize ppl who are different and violate their "rules". But im not supposed to be dan lkaf zechus of ppl like this, otherwise, I will be taken advantage of.

But im still sensitive to the above ppl who act nasty to others who are different"". How? Well even if a relative is criticizing ppls parenting choices, I wont say "well you are not a parent yet so you dont know".(I wont say this bc I still try to be sensitive bc she is suffering from infertility). Or another example a relative who is 33 still unmarried criticizes how I dress or...others who dress different or who wear denim which is against the rules"" , I can say "well who are you to criticize at least shes married but you are not!!" NO I REALLY HONESTLY DONT JUDGE HER FOR NOT BEING MARRIED YET AND I DONT SAY ANYTHING BACK TO INSULT...

So yes I do think "low" of these ppl in how they act bein adam lachaveirio but I still daven for them to not struggle with their hardship and to find happiness. I still try to be sensitive ti them.

But while I judge their bad behavior. I am allowed to!! It is wrong !! But if they judge me for dressing nerdy"" well dressing nerdy"" is not against the torah ..it is their opinion...obviously I think I dress nicely...so too if they judge my dh for wearing a different yamulka....

So I am still deep down caring and sensitive to them ...

amother

Blue

Sat, Mar 24 2018, 9:51 pm

I'm struggling with this concept now. Can someone be a good person, but treat me badly? Can I see the tzelem Elokim in them, but still keep a distance to protect myself.

Meaning, if they are a part of god, and I'm a part of god, and "yisroel v'kudsha birich hu chad hu", then it feels strange to specifically cut myself off from that person. It feels like I'm cutting off part of me, bec we are all one

This balance is really hard for me to develop. The question helped me formulate my struggle into words, and really make my internal battle one that feels concrete enough to work on. Thank you!

momnaturally

Sat, Mar 24 2018, 10:50 pm

amother wrote:

I heard a quote from one of the Rebbes or it was one of the Twerskis
"Everyone does the best they can"
I love this line. Basically some people are very selfless and righteous and some people are really selfish or even cruel but each person is doing the best they can based on their own internal struggles and life situation.
Obviously what is someone else's "best" behavior I may want to keep far away from...but I don't need to look down at them just protect myself from them. ( If I was in their shoes with their emotional issues I may be doing the same thing as them...)

I don't know if his quote was referring to non Jews too but the mitzvah of Dan lechaf zechus I think only applies to Jews.

amother

Pearl

Sat, Mar 24 2018, 11:36 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with this and have the same struggle but concluded that they must be "bad" if they treat me like that. At the same time, I do want them to have a good life /want them to be happy......but I do try to have as least to do with them as possible. When I dont interact with them, I erase all these contradictions"" from my mind. When these ppl interact with me again all these struggles/ questions return.

octopus

Sat, Mar 24 2018, 11:39 pm

amother wrote:

Please protect yourself/distance yourself from these people! Yes, many people mean well, but it doesn't mean they are being sensitive. So to answer you, yes, there can be good in that person, but it's not so good for you to be around them.

amother

Pearl

Sat, Mar 24 2018, 11:41 pm

momnaturally wrote:

Interesting thought, but if some ppl treat ppl really badly such that it is giving them emotional pain, can we really say they are doing their "best"??? Furthermore, how can it be that person's "best" if we are taught that we all need to work on improving our midos and cant sit back and say we cant change bc it is our nature. No! We are supposed to work on using our "nature" to do things that are allowed....so how can we really say that person is doing his best if he treats someone in a way which violates the torah?????

momnaturally

Sun, Mar 25 2018, 12:26 am

amother wrote:

That quote is very deep. If you ever experienced deep emotional issues you can understand that sometimes we do things that are not good yet we can't break out of it.
We were put in this world to do the best we can. We certainly should judge ourselves. However we are not in someone else's place to judge them. We know ourselves and our issues but not theirs. I am not saying to minimize others actions and what others do that is wrong is wrong and we certainly should not use them as a role model. Their action is not something we approve of but we still respect each person for who they are and don't look down at them. Who is to say if you had their situation and emotional turmoils you would do any better ? Maybe they are doing better than you are given the inner makeup they have ? We are not to judge. As a general rule a person really wants to do the best they can they certainly are not looking to be bad. If if it seems they are looking to be bad they must have a very deep hurt and they are just trying to feel better by being bad.